This archived forum used to be called 'Peatarian' (in reference to Ray Peat).

K2 making teeth worse?

My dentist found two cavities recently, and rather than having them filled and paying the insane expense that accompanies it in my country, I decided that I'd try to treat them myself with lots of vitamin D and k2.

The cavity in my lower left side is apparently very close to reaching the nerve and my dentist wanted to fix it immediately to avoid a root treatment, which she said wouldn't be appropriate for my age group (I'm 23).

I bought Biotics vitamin D and Thorne's vitamin k2 instead. I've had good experience with supplementing vit. D (primarily mood-related improvements), but I've never supplemented k2 before.

I've taken 15 drops a day as recommended on the bottle and now at day 14 (ca.), I can feel my cavities as a light pressure almost all the time and one of my upper right molars has loosened slightly. Nothing major, but I can rock it ever so slightly back and forth and it feels as though it's "broken off" something else, like it's scraping bone if that makes sense? I can even feel it trembling a little when I walk around outside.

I've had a lot of digestive problems in almost 3 years now, and my teeth has worsened considerably in that time. Sugar makes my gum line recede like crazy and now that k2 has backfired I'm at a total loss at what to do.

asked Feb 26, 2015 by Androgynous Monster

Vitamin K2 is somewhat misunderstood, it doesnt magically redirect calcium into bones and teeth. It only sends a message so osteocalcin can get from inside the cell into extracellular part.

Vitamin A and D make osteocalcin, but only when they are both present.

The most difficult part for a hypothroid person is making enough CO2, since calcium needs to be carboxylated to get it into the bone. It doesnt mather how much A,D,K2 you are taking, without CO2 it doesnt work.

Aaah, seems like I have a lot to learn. Thank you!

Yea, low thyroid will lower metabolism and much less CO2 will be made. Without CO2 the whole chain of events stops at a certain point. Healthy thyroid is essential. Chris Masterjohn did a lecture on this:
" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG3vjMKpRPw "

On 10:00:02 in the video you can look at the role of CO2 in the process.

6 Answers

Initially high dose vitamin K2 supplementation had the same effect on me. The solution for me was to increase my calcium intake via egg shells. I've actually managed to remove some brown spots on my teeth with fat solubles plus calcium. Without additional calcium however, both D3 and K2 make my teeth worse. Perhaps with more calcium being laid down into bones, salivary levels drop and teeth demineralize.

answered Feb 27, 2015 by Marko123

Thanks for the suggestion!

In theory, fructose, calcium, magnesium, Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 all work together. Finding your own unique balance for all of them is the key.

If you measure PTH, and you see it declining, then you are probably going in the right direction.

I developed very sensitive teeth even on 1mg thorne K2 MK4 daily that subsided after stopping (I tried this twice with the same response). I got extremely skeptical of the claims that K2 does anything good with teeth. This area is completely devoid of supporting studies and an such high doses may even do the opposite. The natural amount of K2 attained by foods is more in the range of 10-100 µgs per day (unless you eat a big amount of natto daily). This is also the amount recommended by Chris Masterjohn who does active research on vitamin K2.

answered Mar 1, 2015 by Bukowski
edited Mar 3, 2015 by Bukowski

Could it have something to do with an imbalance of other vitamins/minerals? As @Marko123 suggested, If A, D and calcium were adequate, would the effect of k2 be different?

I wonder if the form of K2 makes a difference. The Thorne K2 is Mk4 while the K2 in natto is Mk7. I have read that MK7 is the form that benefits teeth.

Either way, as you pointed out, the K2 content of food is not very high so I don't know how peatarians can justify ingesting large amounts of it on a daily basis.

If tooth decay is caused by a nutrient deficiency of K2, it should not require un-physiological doses of K2 to reverse the decay; even 1mg per day of K2 is too high.

Certain deficiencies probably play a role. But from my experience the local teeth-decaying effect of sucrose coupled with acidic fluids or foods plays a much larger role which is hugely under-appreciated in this community.

CB, I think Peat's said that exposing the teeth to acid can reduce enamel and cause sensitivity. His idea here (if you asked him) might be to have a drink of magnesium or sodium bicarbonate with a little salt after each sugar or acid exposure.

But I can't say how how much that's appreciated. I think there needs to be a kind of experiment protocol or practical guide that puts Peat's broad scientific ideas into a day-to-day perspective.

I dont see how a diet can ever be beneficial if you have to adhere to a thousand rules and counter-compensations (balance x with y and y with z and z with a ........) for it to work.

How much milk are you drinking? And you may be depleting vitamin A which is highly important for teeth as well. I chipped a tooth about a week ago eating a gummy bear that for some reason felt like I was biting a rock. I was on vacation and didn't have access to good milk, but once I got back things started to heal up, and a week later it's almost fully healed. It's pretty amazing because 99% of people would go straight to the dentist. I've healed numerous cavities over the years with the combination of a half gallon of milk per day and ALL of the fat soluble vitamins and growing up I was at the dentist for cavities multiple times per year.

I take the following everyday:

Vitamin A - 50,000 IU
Vitamin D - 5,000 IU
Vitamin K2 - 100 mcg
Vitamin E - 400 IU

answered Feb 26, 2015 by Broda Barnes

"but once I got back things started to heal up, and a week later it's almost fully healed."

You make me laugh everyday. Thank you. (I'm serious)

"Vitamin A - 50,000 IU
Vitamin D - 5,000 IU"

Way too much.

I am not drinking any at the moment. I lost my ability to digest milk along with pretty much everything else, when my stomach troubles began. I take calcium carbonate instead.

@Lost and Insecure

Peat recommends doses from 5,000-100,000 IU. "Way too much" is extremely subjective. Go for a bike ride and drink a kale shake.

all i know is that the best combo for me for teeth health is raw milk and sunlight. If i am getting all the fat soluble vitamins but not the sunlight, i notice my teeth start to suffer

answered Feb 26, 2015 by Nicholas

Light is really important for me as well. What is in your experience the benefits of raw milk vs. store bought?

raw milk gives me a distinct energy and clarity that i don't get with pasteurized. my guess is probably more to do with its benefits to gut bacteria than anything else....

That definitely makes sense. I'm trying to fix my digestion, and have tried Prescript-assist for a couple of weeks now. Hasn't really done anything to be honest.

"I decided that I'd try to treat them myself with lots of vitamin D and k2."

Bad idea. Get them cleaned out and filled ASAP. Or don't, it's your choice. But watch what happens.

Tooth health is more complicated than people in the nutrition/health world think. No one has the correct information. It's all guesswork. All you can do is eat and supplement what you think is good, and brush your teeth everyday/after certain meals/drinks. And pay attention to your teeth.

And pay attention to your teeth.

And pay attention to your teeth.

How the fuck did Denise Minger not know that she was developing "14 cavities?" How does someone not know that is happening? No sensitivity? No opening wide and looking in the mirror? That is because people are weird in this nutrition/health character world. People are not honest. They are hobbyists, who want to look cool in front of their peers.

I'm not vegan, but I'm objective. So let's objectively analyze this claim: People say "vegans lose their teeth from not enough calcium and too much phosphorus." So all of the non-vegan people I know in real life who have fucked up teeth are because they are secretly vegan? All of the British people with bad teeth are because they eat too much fruit and don't drink enough milk?

I drank milk my whole life since I was a kid and I still had plenty of cavities. There may be much more complicated things going on in tooth health, such as enzymatic processes in the mouth, and other things.

The vegan aspect is just one example. Weston Price and "activator x/k2" is pure snake oil. Dig deep into them and you will see that they are just nutrition hobbyists like the rest of us, but they are dogmatic, and most importantly, they are affiliated with supplement companies and websites that sell food and books. They are cultist, the cult of Weston Price. They are cultist because they ignore the role carbohydrates play in health.

After all the bullshit, it seems to me that brushing, even if its just quickly, after every meal is the only true way to prevent tooth decay.

answered Feb 26, 2015 by Westside PUFAs

Thank you for this. I've been interested in health and nutrition long enough for me to realise that the power of suggestion should never be underestimated.

As you say, the movements behind all of these different dietary ideas, push specific products or dogmas as the one true solution to every problem a person could ever possibly experience. It reeks of religious undertones and I'm sorry to say that I've failed to spot the difference between them and certain followers of Peat. I don't blame the man himself since he has clearly always been opposed to exactly this kind of authoritarian blindness that people are so willing to buy into.

As a sidenote, it isn't my impression that the WP foundation is entirely against carbohydrates. I think they prefer it fermented or sprouted though.

Our fine British teeth is healthier than Americans - http://www.economist.com/node/15060097

The difference is that we don't care so much if it goes a little crooked and yellow, whereas Americans will pay $$$ to have straightened, bleached white teeth (which look healthy, but often aren't, much like a physically fit human being whose internal organs have gone to shit.)

Yes, in the context of weight loss, they are clearly against it. But they do include so called "properly prepared" carbohydrates in their diet.

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/differences-between-the-weston-a-price-foundation-diet-and-the-paleo-diet/

Ignore this clown. He just wants attention!

If you get enough vitamins and calcium and drink some carbonated water then you probably would get somewhere.

But how much carbonated water or breathing in a bag. I dont know if any studies were done?

answered Mar 1, 2015 by Gurt

Carbonated water upsets my digestion. I have no idea why though

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