This archived forum used to be called 'Peatarian' (in reference to Ray Peat).

98.8F and I'm cold?

Its about 67 degrees in my office. I am wearing a light fleece cardigan. My temp is 98.5 to 98.8. On the good Vick's digital everybody recommends. Pulse around 90. And I'm cold. My feet and hands especially. Not shivering freezing cold mind you, but my toes are cold and my hands are cold. And I am sitting at a computer mostly. Not wearing the warmest socks/shoes. But still. Seems like I should be warmer. Thoughts?

asked Feb 12, 2015 by KBjam

Could it be stress hormones adrenaline and cortisol keeping you warm but extremities cold? If i remember correctly when you eat a meal do your temps and pulse drop?

I tried thyroid on 4 different occasions, and the one thing I could not understand is why my feet would get cold an hour after breakfast, and my basal temp would never increase from 96.5-97.2. Hands would be fine. When I started eating more than just 2 eggs and juice for breakfast, for example, a pancake, 2 eggs, and two pieces of bacon, I was able to stay warm all day. The one thing I noticed was that drinking coffee would quickly make my feet ice cold. No amount of sugar or protein would correct it immediately, but take an hour or two. I also noticed that when I don't drink coffee, and still consume large amounts of food all day, by night time my feet are actually hot! They feel like they are burning. So, in conclusion, my thyroid is probably fine, or I gave myself diabetes eating all kinds of sugar thinking its healthy. Time will tell.

That is the most intelligent input on the topic there has been. Where are your basal temps now? BTW, no thyroid here.

The only thing I noticed thyroid ever did for me successfully AND consistently, was give me insomnia. My temps pre- Peat were sometimes in the 95's, and just simply eating more protein and sugar got them up quite nicely. Now I am solid all day long, 98.6-99.1, with my heart rate increasing after meals. Still have very low wake up temps around 97, but even Broda Barnes in his book said not to treat the temperature, but the symptoms, and to only be alarmed if the basal temp went above 98.2 for long periods of time (I believe over a month). You, among others, may have had differing experiences than me, but my digestion got so piss poor trying to eat a Peat style diet recommended through a Roddy lens. My temps are now the best they have ever been, but my sleep is still not the best (very wakeful) and my digestion has definitely taken its toll. I feel the best when I just eat to satiety, focus on other things, and forget about trying to accomplish some unrealistic sense of well being via diet, because the only thing thats accomplished for me is terrible digestion and anxiety. Exercise has probably done more for my well being than any diet ever has. If your cold and its 65, its probably because it's cold. I still don't quite grasp the "cold-intolerance" being indicative of hypothyroidism, especially since some of the fattest people I've ever met can wear shorts and a t-shirt in 50 degrees, and sweat all day long. Are they hyperthyroid? Broda Barnes in his book says that he realized he was hypothyroid because he was giving a speech at some medical seminar, and noticed that he needed to wear a jacket, while others were fine in their shirts. To me, I would think he was just nervous about speaking and his adrenaline made him cold, which is natural.

My temps were never as low as yours, but otherwise seems similar. SOmething not generally discussed here that has helped me sleep is Biotin. Shockingly good. Started having to set an alarm! One caveat: biotinidase deficiency runs in my family. I've never been diagnosed, but it could be.

As for fat people being warm, I've always presumed it to be related to serotonin and not thyroid. But I have come to the conclusion that I am probably just cold because my office is a little cold. A little activity and sunlight can do wonders. I can ski in 30 F with nothing but a base and a shell and be quite comfortable.

Yea, I was still trying to recover from my affair with low-carbs. I asked Peat about liquids vs. solids making someone cold but he ignored the question.

Do you drink coffee?

4 Answers

90 is generally considered to be in the stress hormone realm. But the Rubins teach that while temp and pulse are very important in decoding the body, they are not always textbook or the same for everyone. Always the best indicator is mood and bodily function over an extended period of time. So in this scenario, it is probably best to not think much of it, and only take note of it if it is persistent.

answered Feb 12, 2015 by Nicholas

I thought Peat liked a pulse in this range--a sign of high metabolism. As 98.8 presumably is?

yes, i know the Peatarian world recommends this 90 range, but I'm not sure it's accurate. but maybe 90 is right for you, as i said. however, i don't recall Peat recommending a high metabolism....and if he does, i would disagree with him on that. you never want anything to be out of balance. your metabolism should simply be functioning correctly for where you are right now.

" (Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute.)"
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml

My pulse goes UP after eating. As does my temp and my relative feeling of warmth. I believe this is "normal" or expected. My temp may range from 98.3 to 98.5 3-4 hours after meal, pulse 80-90. May be 98.6-99.1 after eating, pulse 85-100. The more carbs I eat, the more the rise in pulse and temp. But I am not a carbaholic, so this is relative.

yeah, i'd say my pulse hovers in the low 80s and i stay around 98.5. your pulse and temp should rise after eating. there are all kinds of ways to raise and lower temp. and pulse.

My main question is should I feel cold? Am I expecting to much to be toasty warm?

if it is persistent cold, then i'd say something is out of balance and your numbers are not where they should be. toasty warm can be positive but it can also be negative. you say that your "relative feeling of warmth" rises after eating - so i'm assuming the original post was a rare occasion?

correction: your numbers may not be telling the story accurately is what i mean - not that "98.8" isn't a good temp. for you...

Well you may just be expecting too much. Your office temp is 67 and you're just sitting at a computer.

"" (Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute.)"

Exactly who are these "healthy and intelligent groups of people"?
And who decided these particular groups were "healthy" and "intelligent"? So there are no stupid, unhealthy people who have high pulse and high body temperature? Why doesn't Ray Peat give specific examples of the "unhealthy and unintelligent" groups of people with low pulse and low body temperature?

This is the problem with Ray Peat. He makes sweeping generalizations like this with absolutely no scientific evidence to support it. And peatarians simply accept his opinions and proceed to manipulate their bodies with hormones, vitamins and drugs.

Who is Ray Peat to decide that one group of people is "intelligent" while another is not? And what exactly does it mean to be "healthy"?

I agree with you, Islandgirl. That quote bugs me.

Ah, Islandtroll. He is summarizing research, not judging individuals.

Well you may just be expecting too much. Your office temp is 67 and you're just sitting at a computer.

Yeah, I mean really. What are you wearing? Just sitting around in mid 60 degree temps without a heat source calls for a thick wool layer and some neck wear. People didn't wear the hats and gloves and cravats back in the day just to look good. Offices are usually heated to 72F these days so people don't dress like that anymore.

victorian_suit

They don't have cheap natgas or coal in Japan and Korea for heating and so usually keep indoor temps fairly low in winter. Everybody huddles up against small electric heaters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotatsu

kotatsu

Off topic, but I wish someone would bring back that style for the gents. :-)

Well that guy looks ridiculous and the suit isn't tailored properly, but the point is people used to layer up with wool over a dense cotton/linen underlayer, and keep their necks covered.

People wear thin, crappy acrylic and cotton blends these days and wonder why they're cold. Proper wool clothing is quite expensive. I have a couple American made winter weight suits from the mid 80s and they're thick, dense wool with vest piece. Very warm. You can't easily buy them like that anymore.

The new synthetics as an under-layer are great for cold weather. Get some of those form fitting winter weight synthetic leggings and tops they sell at sporting goods stores. Put wool trousers and a thick pure wool sweater on over that. Put on a pashmina. You'll be perfectly comfortable sitting around in 60F.

I love men in top hats.
It's easy to buy wool clothing used (at least where I shop). About 80% of my wardrobe is comprised of wool/cashmere/occasional alpaca that I get (like new) from thrift stores or the Salvation Army.

I'm pretty certain IslandGirl is Anne Robinson enter image description here

High adrenaline from excess sugar intake?

answered Feb 14, 2015 by Bukowski

Ah, Pukowski. You don't even mis-cite bad science any more? Everybody knows that sugar reduces adrenaline. And, by the way, I don't consume much sugar.

Nice try. Well, not really.

While Bukowski removed a big heap of his trash from the forum, he still likes to litter it occasionally.

Perhaps I'm going to regret commenting here, but it seems to me that Bukowski, while often the contrarian, is extremely polite and gentlemanly about it. Couldn't we all just get along? :-)

:-)

not sure about that. calling people that disagree with you members of ISIS doesn't seem the most polite thing ever.

When your liver is overburdened with sugar (or excess carbohydrates in general), then adrenaline goes up to mobilize the sugar from the liver and promote its oxidation in muscle cells (that is also why adrenaline increases the metabolic rate). Adrenaline causes vasodilatation in liver and muscle vessels, but vasoconstriction in less important organs, which could explain the cold hands and feet.

This phenomenon is exacerbated when liver function is impaired or when there is insulin resistance (i.e. from fatty liver and total fat gain on peatarian diet). Elevated insulin increases adrenaline action.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/250/2/E226.short
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/257/3/E340.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016502709090057M
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9347402

"This phenomenon is exacerbated when liver function is impaired or when there is insulin resistance (i.e. from fatty liver and total fat gain on peatarian diet)."
The only quibble I have with this statement is your characterization of this process as a "peatarian" one. I think Dr. Peat makes it clear that you ideally should only eat what you need to keep your glycogen stores replenished, which for many of us means very small amounts of carbohydrate (or any food) at any time. Perhaps some of us get into trouble when we don't realize just how little the quantity should be, but that's our own error, not Peat's.

it amazes me after all this time that Bukowski's post would be considered contrarian and not for what it is - actually rooted in real science. (and real experience, if you've read any of the personal experiences here)

kapow - peatarianism is the dogma diet created in his name. it comprises well over half of the substance of this forum. New converts will ask questions like, "how much orange juice and milk should i be drinking?"

"Stuff in calories" as advice was only ever a Matt Stone thing, to my knowledge. Not really "Peat."

Nicholas,
I don't know....I still consider myself kind of new here, and I have been away from this forum for several months, but I really don't see that many dogmatic personalities on here. And I'm pretty casual about it, but I consider myself a Peatarian of sorts.
I gained a little fat after shifting to a more Peaty approach, but I was coming from a largely vegetarian ketogenic diet, where I was periodically incorporating intermittent fasting. So I was restricting my intake greatly before, and eating largely unpleasant meals at that, and my metabolism was shot.
Thus, it's no surprise to me that I gained a little weight transitioning to food that I actually like, while eating multiple times a day. The only surprising thing to me now is that I didn't anticipate the challenges inherent in having so many little meals and plan accordingly. If my body only required 1600 calories a day to function, and I was now eating about 6 times a day, that didn't give me much wiggle room, and in retrospect I think that I may have needed to strictly count calories (or pay better attention to real hunger cues) for a while if I wanted to prevent myself from storing any excess energy.

In these instances, the cold feeling is usually due to decreased peripheral perfusion. There are too many possible causes to list them. I would check blood pressure. Low blood pressure combined with a high resting pulse (90 isn't all that high, but it is elevated) usually speaks for shock. But similar symptoms can occur due to stress.

Does the feeling of coldness persist when you stand up and move around?

answered Feb 14, 2015 by Dewitt

I agree that cold extremities come from decreased peripheral perfusion, and that there are many causes, and I think too little CO2 is what decreases perfusion, by whatever cause.

For an impressive display of this, there is Wim Hof, who uses extemely high CO2 to protect his naked extremities when submerged in an ice bath.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01793/ice-bath_1793831i.jpg
Wim Hof in ice bath

Peat suggests that bag breathing will restore CO2 and warmth to cold extremities. Wim Hof does a kind of bag breathing, but he uses his lungs as the bag, and holds his breath for very long periods of time.

Sitting in front of a screen, be it computer, phone or TV, for a while almost always makes my hands and feet cold. I tend to think that it has something to do with the brain activity while using those, and probably also effects from the light. If i do something more creative, like paint, play guitar or similar, i usually don't get cold extremities as easily. I've found a relaxing walk for 10-15 minutes to be the best cure for cold extremities in that situation, given that your diet is okay.

answered Feb 14, 2015 by Kranum
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