This archived forum used to be called 'Peatarian' (in reference to Ray Peat).

Milk and Digestive/other issues - a post I made at RP Forum

Hi Everyone.

Just curious about this possibility, since I hear a lot of people praising and complaining about milk. I stopped drinking more than a small amount in my coffee because I noticed I was just getting fatter and feeling worse. Which leads me to this - which I posted at the Ray Peat Forum, looking for some solid experience and answers.

My German friend moved to the US about 6 years ago and said that she has been suffering from massive digestive problems ever since - she loves milk and would drink it all the time, especially whole milk. She said that she never suffered digestive problems in Germany and that when she goes back to Europe, she can drink milk and eat dairy without any troubles at all. Then, someone told her it might be that she was allergic to our milk, since the majority of it comes from Holstein cows. So she stopped drinking milk made here in the US and her digestive issues stopped. She's currently on the lookout for Jersey cow milk, as that's suppose to be better suited for people. But it's not easy to come across unless you live near farms.

I guess there is an A1 protein in the Holstein breed's milk that can be difficult for many people to digest. My husband has said that most of his family members have stopped drinking milk due to digestive problems. I notice sensitivity to any diary product that is not hard cheese. I may not have noticed it previously, but when I was trying to drink more milk, it always made me feel off (lots of bloating and water retention) - I have digestive issues with many things, so I just attributed it to general digestive problems, but they've gotten worse the more dairy I've added back into my diet. Now I restrict my dairy intake to milk or cream in coffee and hard cheese. Switching to hard cheeses has actually allowed me to still get good calcium without feeling awful. Apparently cheese & butter are not as problematic as milk or yogurt.

Any thoughts? I've currently switched to goats' milk for awhile to see how it goes, now that I'm not longer restricting my fat intake (full fat goats' milk has more calcium than low fat). I'm also going to try out Jersey cow milk and see if it's better, but it seems any cows' milk has a higher likelihood of being A1 casein. Part of the reason I've been testing this out is that I get the worst reactions to cottage cheese (which is pure casein) - even if I buy the organic stuff without carrageenan.

What are your thoughts on this? Here is another article about this subject on Mother Jones: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/a1-milk-a2-milk-america

Has anyone here switched to goats' or other milk and had better luck? As I said, I no longer drink tons of milk, but this whole topic has caused me to consider giving up all Holstein dairy entirely, with the exception of hard cheeses and butter. There is a French guy on RP Forum who has investigated this a lot and he told me he switched to Goats' milk and feels great.

Also, notice some of the reactions to this A1 protein - such as eczema and asthma. Skin reactions related to milk could be entirely related to the wrong kind of milk.

If you are interested in more literature on this subject, there is this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Milk-Illness-Health-Politics/dp/1603581022

This is kind of a big deal for anyone who had jumped on board with the RP mentality of milk - it could be the larger explaining factor of why so many people do so terribly when they start drinking lots of milk. I have noticed great improvements in my bone and tooth strength (not to mention muscle gain), so I think dairy is very important, but only if it's the right kind of dairy - which is why I shifted to cheese and cream in my milk (more recently).

asked Feb 8, 2015 by Lindsay

From what I hear US milk is pretty terrible.

Spokey, I suppose it depends on location, but I'm surrounded by really great dairy farms and delicious milk so not all milk in the US is terrible.

5 Answers

The quality of milk is really quite variable, depending on things like time of year, what the cow ate, and even how the cow feels. But it's not just cows, it's human mothers, too. Breastfed babies respond to their mother's environment with keen sensitivity!

Given the criminal abuse of animals that goes on in the typical industrial dairy cartel, it's no surprise that industrial milk would be toxic.

Does that mean you shouldn't have milk at all? There is no optimal nutrition of ideal, problem-free food. The safer alternative to milk is potato extract of ketoacids, but you'll need about eight pounds of potatoes a day. Beyond that, there's milk from a local farmer you know by name, who treats the milking mothers humanely, if law doesn't forbid you from buying directly, and threatening the dairy cartel.

But even the best milk can still be problematic if you don't have a relatively germ free gut, and a healthy liver that can provide sufficient thyroid. Raw carrot with coconut oil and salt, activated charcoal or the tetracyclines are needed for their antibacterial properties, along with the avoidance of resistant starch and industrial contaminants.

answered Feb 8, 2015 by visionofstrength

Did I mention I digest cheese just fine? So long as it's not cottage cheese.

Yes, I didn't mention (because you did) that cheese is a safe extract of milk, if it is made without industrial enzymes. Nice post, by the way! Thanks for that!

Good answer, P!

I appreciate that you brought up how the cow and human mother feel as well as knowing the farmer by name and that he treats his cows humanely. That was my top priority back when I was looking for a farm to get my milk from and I found that there are many amazing dairy farmers around me who care for their cows with so much respect and love. You don't hear about those from the vegan crowd. Sadly, you only hear about the "torture" factory farms.

@ Visionofstrength: I totally agree with your post about the way the cow is raised. I buy only grass-fed milk at the store, or our local raw cows' milk. And recently, I've been buying Meyenburg - I wrote to them awhile back and they raise their goats on pasture and make sure they are happy until the day they die (I've never gotten such a long in-depth email from the customer service agent). The cheese thing is interesting, because as Burtlancast mentioned on RP forum, the issue with BCM is that it is liberated in much higher quantities through milk and yogurt than cheese - which means cheese should be easier to digest and less problematic.

And I agree with Jennifer - there are many amazing small farms out there. The real milk website is just really wonderful for finding them!! I just wish more people carried fresh goat and sheep milk! I'd like to try everything. Plus, I just got Buffalo Mozzarella the other day - so good!

Oh my! I love mozzarella. It's right up there with ricotta for my favorite cheese.

Hey, Lindsay, do you like the Meyenburg goat milk? I wanted to try theirs because I watched a video of their farm and when the goats are retired, they still keep them and let them live out on pasture for the rest of their days here. It would be great to support a farm like that.

Jennifer! I love their goats milk!! It's delicious!! The only reason I opted for cow's milk versus goats' milk is because it's cheaper. But I LOVE goats' milk and cheese. Right from the start! So now I'm seeing how I feel drinking their milk - since I am more of a cheese person, I can justify spending a little more for milk so long as I drink it all :) I never was able to finish the gallon of raw before it would go bad.

I also want to try to make ice cream with the goats' milk :) We have an ice-cream maker and I think Meyenberg milk would be delicious!! It's so creamy. I was very impressed with how they treat their goats, so I am glad to support them! Goats milk in coffee is just divine too :)

Ooh...perfect! I'll be trying Meyenburg then. I wanted to substitute some of the cow milk I drink for goat milk simply because it's higher in preformed vitamin A. I need a good source of A since I just can't get myself to eat liver without gagging. Have you tried Meyenburg's butter also? I think we had talked about it on here once with Dutchiee.

And good idea with the goat milk ice cream. I have an ice cream maker too so I'll try making some. I think I'll make maple ice cream. I've formed an addiction to the stuff. I have a neighbor who taps for maple syrup and I keep eyeing those trees. :D

ooh!! Maple ice cream sounds so delicious!! Will have to keep that in mind! We feed our dog ice cream every night and I want to see if replacing that snack with goat cheese or ice cream would help with his skin issues..... we'll see.

Also, I just opened up the Oaks Knoll brand and that one tastes much more similar to cows' milk - it's also really delicious. Not sure of their farm practices, but they are located in Vermont so it's more local. I am going to look at their website and see what I can find. And I will have to look out for the goats' milk butter!! Even if butter and cheese are easier to digest, I bet goats' butter is amazing!

p.s. Oak Knoll dairy also looks good!! http://www.oakknolldairy.com/our_farm.html

Ooh...that's right! I forgot about Oak Knoll. I use to eat their yogurt years back and the flavor was really clean like cow's milk. Since I don't eat yogurt anymore and haven't seen their milk here in town, I'll have to see if they carry it at Whole Foods.

Thank you for checking out the farm and posting the link. I'm glad to know they're a good farm also. :)

Not to discredit your friend's or Burtlancast's experience, Lindsay, but for me personally, I saw no difference between A2 certified 100% grass-fed milk from Guernseys and Devonshire heritage breeds, goat dairy and plain old Organic Valley or Stonyfield milk. In fact, the farmer I get my A2 milk from isn't convinced that there is validity to the A2 beta casein claims, but he went ahead and had his cows tested anyway for his customers. The thing that raises a red flag for him and I is that, at the time (I'm not sure if it's still the case), farmer's milk could only be licensed as being A2 milk if the cows were tested through the same company that claimed A1 to be an issue, the A2 Milk Company. Here's a quote:

"While the company marketing A2 milk claims that milk containing A1 proteins are harmful, there is no scientific evidence that A2 milk has benefits over normal milk.[1]
A1 and A2 beta-casein are genetic variants of the beta-casein milk protein that differ by one amino acid. The A1 beta-casein type is the most common type found in cow's milk in Europe (excluding France), the USA, Australia and New Zealand. A genetic test, developed by the A2 Milk Company, determines whether a cow produces the A2 or A1 type protein in its milk. The test allows the A2 Milk Company to give licenses to milk producers once these producers prove their cows produce only A2 beta-casein protein in their milk, to the exclusion of the A1 beta-casein protein type."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A2_milk

Here's what is said about the A1 mutation:

"All proteins are long chains of amino acids. Beta casein is a chain 229 amino acids in length. Cows who produce this protein in their milk with a proline at number 67 are called A2 cows, and are the older breeds of cows (e.g. Jerseys, Asian and African cows). But some 5,000 years ago, a mutation occurred in this proline amino acid, converting it to histidine. Cows that have this mutated beta casein are called A1 cows, and include breeds like Holstein."

So that would mean 5,000 years of dairy intolerances for anyone drinking milk from Holsteins or other A1 cows. When I was a little girl in the 80s to early 90s, there were no buzz words like A1/A2 casein, grass-fed, raw ect. and it was rare that a person had a milk allergy. I personally never knew anyone with a dairy allergy.

I'm not sure why your friend has an issue with milk in the US, but what we do know for certain is many of the people on the Ray Peat forum as well as here, are pretty extreme cases in terms of our diet and health history. Many of us found Ray Peat because our health was in the tanker due to restrictive diets like low-carb or fruitarianism ect. so I'm not surprised people are reacting poorly to milk and also many other foods. If you've noticed, people are also complaining about fat gain and fatty livers from the carbs, inflammation from meat and major digestive upset from starches. So perhaps many of the dairy intolerances stem from not only the cows diet, but our own diet history?

One interesting thing I noticed with me is that after taking minocycline for the bacterial infection, I no longer have any skin issues or digestive troubles whatsoever when I have dairy of any kind. How did you handle dairy after the appendectomy and rounds of antibiotics, Lindsay?

answered Feb 8, 2015 by Jennifer

Thanks for a good answer Jennifer!! I was mostly turned onto this idea because my husband finally told me that milk would give him diarrhea. He has the best digestion of anyone I know - can eat pretty much anything. Also, as I said, when I rarely ate dairy, I didn't have the same digestive upset. Cheese seems fine for me though.

I was also thinking about this because the dairy I eat when I go to Russia doesn't bother me nearly so much as here. Maybe there is another reason behind this, but it's just interesting is all.

I handled dairy all right during antibiotics (honestly, everything I ate just went right through me though), except I feel my cheese cravings have been a little wonky - I just can't stop eating cheese.

I'm sure a huge part of it is bacterial and metabolic related, but I'm also inclined to think there is something to this milk thing. Especially considering so many moms I know had to give up dairy because it was affecting their nursing babies. One friend of mine said that if she ate dairy, her son would have horrible digestive issues after nursing.

I think traditionally, goats' and sheeps' milk are the milks most people consume across the globe - they are much easier to keep for small farmers. I remember reading about this before, as goats' milk is more similar to human breast milk. Also, it has more MCT's than cow dairy.

I'm not really sure what to make of it all except that dairy does seem to bother a lot of people, young and old. Not sure if it's the feed or the processing or what - it's a mystery to me. But the first thing many of my friends give up if they have digestive issues is dairy. I thought it was due to most dairy not being raw, but maybe it's just that some are allergic to the A1 and others have adapted just fine? No idea. I'd have to test it more to find out. If I can give my husband goats' milk and he doesn't have diarrhea, that would be interesting. But he's not super fond of it.

@Jennifer, Lindsay, you should write a book together. Your experiences are really informative!

Has your husband always suffered with diarrhea from drinking cow milk?

Also, is it that common "barnyard" flavor from goat's milk that your husband isn't fond of? If so, you could check with the farm you get your milk from and see how it's handled.

The practitioner I was working with during RBTI actually raised dairy goats and she told me if the milk is handled only with metal, it will stay a sweet, clean flavor. She said if it's handled with plastic, that's when it develops that goaty flavor. I've also read on goat dairying forums that the barnyard flavor can be transferred to the milk from certain goats depending on their hormones. So you might be able to find a goat milk that taste good to your husband.

But yeah, I agree that many mothers have stopped drinking milk due to their babies suffering digestive troubles from nursing. What's odd is my cousin's daughter suffered horrible constipation from nursing so I mentioned switching to goat milk and also gave my cousin a couple formula recipes, one from WAPF and another from RBTI and it took regular store bought formula to relieve her daughter of digestive troubles. It's really bizarre, but there was something about the store bought formula that made it easy for her to digest it.

Thanks, P! :)

So Lindsay, want to collaborate on a book? We can add photos. I know a really good photographer! ;)

Regarding my hubby, he said no - he hasn't. He could drink it fine as a child - as could I, except I had eczema and sports-induced asthma for many years. He had acne. So maybe it's the milk causing issues, or maybe it's bacteria - who knows! But he loves milk and will just drink it on the weekends when he's home.

I'm going to try to get him to drink the goats' milk - he LOVES goat cheese, so maybe it will be fine. I just bought another brand (in addition to Meyenberg) to try to see how they compare taste-wise. But I think Meyenberg is amazingly good!

I really don't understand how infants have so much trouble these days with their mother's milk. Maybe it's the vaccines. I'm still convinced that our dog's immune system has been destroyed by vaccinations. I wonder if it's just all the environmental factors that cause them to react to their mother's dairy? Who knows! So goats' milk didn't help with your cousin's daughter?

And about the book, I'd love to go take lots of farm pics :) I'm actually thinking of driving out to some of our local farms (which are like an hour away) so I can photograph the animals :) Although, I'm not sure I have as much good info. to share as you Jennifer!! I'm terrible because I don't really pay attention to how things effect my body, unless its a truly bad reaction. I'm always like, well tomorrow's another day!

Hmm...yeah, so maybe it is a bacteria thing, I'm not sure. It's a shame that he has to stay home in order to be able to enjoy milk. Hopefully, he'll enjoy the goat milk and it won't cause him any digestive upset.

"And about the book, I'd love to go take lots of farm pics :) I'm actually thinking of driving out to some of our local farms (which are like an hour away) so I can photograph the animals :) Although, I'm not sure I have as much good info. to share as you Jennifer!! I'm terrible because I don't really pay attention to how things effect my body, unless its a truly bad reaction. I'm always like, well tomorrow's another day!"

Oh no! Trust me, I'm no better! You saw the pictures of me on my log on the Ray Peat forum, right? If not, go look at them and see how I was terribly underweight and still hiking. I'm horrible when it comes to paying attention to how things affect my body, never mind acknowledging my body's pain. I power through everything and my "I can make it work at all costs" attitude is what got me in this mess in the first place. :(

You know, I have a friend from hiking and he's a freelance photographer and literally spends all week in the White Mountains camping out and hiking to get some incredible shots. He could hike with me on a moment's notice, even on a weekday and get some work down at the same time. He totally has the life! Maybe farm shots will be in high demand given our current farm to table movement going on. :D

I just went through your log to see those pics - oh my! You were beautiful beforehand - no need to lose any weight!! And you've come a long way since then it seems!! How long did it take to do the bone damage do you think?

But I totally understand. I took pics of myself at 95 lbs. (I'm 5'6", so I was a skeleton as well at 95 lbs.) and either deleted them because I didn't want to see them, or they are on an old hard drive somewhere. My family was at wits end during that time because they thought I was starving myself - I wasn't intentionally, just really stressed and having huge digestive problems.

I'm still amazed at how my body has recovered. And I'm amazed I never had bone issues (although my teeth took a huge hit). I think all the milk and dairy I ate as a child really came to my benefit because my bones have remained very strong despite being malnourished and eating very little dairy over the more recent years. I did break my wrist a few years back, which alarmed me. But I fell on ice recently and came out with just a few bumps and bruises - all that vitamin K is really paying off!! I'm taking a supplement - I too hate liver and only get a little K2 in cheeses otherwise. It has made a huge difference in how my teeth feel. Worth every penny if I don't have to see the dentist!!

Your photographer friend does seem to have it made!! Does he sell his work to magazines?? Sounds ideal - much better than shooting weddings! I'm hoping I will get to do more like this in Europe and Russia in the coming years, but I'm broke currently. Farm stuff is a great place to start though - you are right!! And we have so many farms in my neighborhood - I want to call them when the weather gets nicer!!

Thank you for the kind words, Lindsay. :)

I only recall developing bone pain after a year on the 80/10/10 diet, but I'm sure my previous years of hiking didn't help matters given I was already small to began with so I didn't have much for reserves. There were some weekends where we'd do 4 or 5 mountain traverses, all in one day. We also did a lot of winter hiking which means carrying extra gear and extra weight, but I had stopped hiking at least a year prior to fracturing so I know the major protein deficiency I developed while on 80/10/10 did me in. But yeah, I can understand what you went through with your family. I dealt with that myself.

I too consumed a lot of dairy in my youth and I was always healthy, up until a couple years before getting hurt. And yes, K2 is great! I'm glad you didn't suffer any broken bones with your fall. I've been supplementing with lots of Thorne, especially now that I'm on the Minocycline.

Yeah, my friend sells his work to magazines and he also has a website where he sells his photos. The farm should be fun! Lots of good things to take pictures of! I'm fond of close-ups of the animals, particularly of their eyes. A ton of soul, some beautiful reflections and those pretty eyelashes. :)

"because I noticed I was just getting fatter and feeling worse."

Yep. It's the cream (fat) in the milk.

"she loves milk and would drink it all the time, especially whole milk"

Whole milk = too much cream (fat). I know you will say "but she drinks whole milk back in Europe." Well, you did say it's been about 6 years. Metabolism slows as we get older. And you should confirm if she actually did drink whole milk back home. You should confirm exactly how the milk was. Her Euro definition of whole milk may be very different from the Redneck States of America.

Cottage cheese is not pure casein. Cottage cheese has cream (fat) and lactose (sugar). Even if it is the low fat version. I wish someone made a very low fat cottage cheese, with no added vitamin A.

I think the A1 milk thing is snake oil. Keith Woodford, author of Devil in the Milk, clearly says in this podcast:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness/2011/11/17/devil-in-the-milk-with-keith-woodford-1

that he is affiliated with the company in, I believe it was OZ or NZ, that started to promote that myth so they can sell their milk and make people not want to buy the other milk. There is a part in the interview where it gets awkward and it seems like he's a huckster. He is the guy who started the whole thing. Listen to the podcast and you'll know that this guy is a quack, just from the way he talks.

Even the really smart Andrew Kim on the subject of whole milk, once said: "I don't drink whole milk because A. I don't want to get fat, and B..." I forget what B was but I remember him saying that.

Ray Peat does not drink whole milk. He drinks 1% or skim and when he's in Mexico, the farmer there skims the cream (fat) off of the milk for him.

I'm lucky enough to live in CA where I have access to Organic Pastures Grass Fed Raw Skim milk, which is a very high quality, no vitamin A or D added, milk.
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

"OPDC raw skim milk is alive with fully active enzymes, a broad spectrum of naturally occurring beneficial bacteria, essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants."

answered Feb 8, 2015 by Westside PUFAs

Somehow I knew you would be the first to answer this. The fat is not the problem. My friend is SUPER skinny and got even thinner while in Italy recently - she said she ate dairy there and had no trouble with it.

Eating full fat cheese (not cottage cheese) has actually allowed me to lose some fat around my middle - not gain it. So I think it's the milk causing digestive issues that's the problem - even skim milk makes me feel awful. Believe me - I've tried so many milks. I tolerate raw the best, but only in small doses - and I would skim the cream off.

Besides, you forget that I am female and females carry more body fat than men naturally and probably require more daily fat intake. I don't live in Cali where the weather is warm. I live in the NorthEast and am buried under snow. I've been experimenting a lot with what works for me and no matter what, I keep coming back to cheese. And lately sushi. I've been eating whatever digests easiest lately and cheese and sushi have been staples for me. As well as oranges and OJ (keep endotoxin at bay).

I will listen to his podcast, but I'm more inclined to find scientific research. Traditionally, people eat goats and sheeps milk. So I'm going to try the goats' milk for awhile and see how it goes. The benefits I've felt from adding dairy into my diet far outweigh the negatives, because I can adjust those. My teeth feel much better and if I fall on ice, I don't crumble like I used to. I'm sure eventually I'll tire of eating cheese, but I'm certainly not giving up my milk or cream in coffee. And I'm not fat, so that's also not an issue for me. Going low fat never really helped me lose weight, so I just gave that up. I'm heavier now than I was 3 years ago, but I was probably underweight at that time.

p.s. my German friend is a huge advocate of whole milk - she often talks about how she misses whole raw milk back home. So I'm assuming she drinks raw milk when in Germany.

Even if she is skinny, it doesn't mean that the cream is not the thing that is causing problems. Too much fat at once clogs up the bloodstream. That is the problem. There is a difference between eating some cheese, and drinking high fat milk. I eat very small amounts of Parm Reggiano and I've noticed as long as I don't eat too much of it at once, then I don't have blood sugar reactions. As long as I eat it by itself, and wait an hour to eat anything else. I have to let the fat go through by itself.

"females carry more body fat than men naturally and probably require more daily fat intake."

That is just an excuse women online in the "health" and "nutrition" world are making for their excess fat. It is complete BS. Carry extra fat if you feel you must, but if one day you start to have problems, you may want to consider losing the excess fat. But most people aren't willing to put int he work to do so.

"That is just an excuse women online in the "health" and "nutrition" world are making for their excess fat. It is complete BS."
Lindsay, please keep in mind that this is the dude who tried desperately (yet thankfully failed) to convince a lean 23 year old bodybuilder that she was fat.

Oh yeah....He's also the same guy who claimed to look like a "model" while eating high fat last spring. ;-)

Westside, as soon as I get a few minutes, I'm going to respond to your post on fat causing insulin resistance.

Keep eating your cheese, Lindsay.

WP, I tracked down a little Italian cheese company that makes a fat-free ricotta from only skim milk and a starter (vinegar). I don't know if it's available in your area (I get it at Whole Foods), but you could try contacting the company http://calabrocheese.com to see if you can get it.

oh Karin, you amuse me :)

I remind you, that girl never showed proof that she is a real, professional "bodybuilder." And she just said that she does "olympic weightlifting." That does not mean she is a pro. Again, its not that someone is fat is the main or first problem, as in Lindsay's skinny friend, its that too much fat consumed at once is the problem for both skinny and fat people. the fat people having excess fat on their body is a separate issue.

I never claimed to eat high fat, ever.

Thanks Jennifer, I'll see if I can find it near me.

"That is just an excuse women online in the "health" and "nutrition" world are making for their excess fat. It is complete BS."

(Lindsay, this comment is not direct at you personally).

I agree. I am sick of the fat acceptance among many women today It is especially annoying when they try to convince women like me (who don't like being overweight) that we should accept ourselves exactly as we are and not try to lose excess weight; they claim that society and men are putting too much pressure on women to be "unnaturally" thin and use that to justify being overweight. It's mind boggling that a woman can be 5ft 4in tall, weigh 160 pounds and think she is normal weight. That's what's going on here on America. American women are getting fatter and fatter everyday and I am so glad I am not a heterosexual male because I would be so repulsed by the sight of many American women.

@Westside:

When I say "high fat", I am not referring to normal human definitions of "high fat". I am referring to your current, utterly preposterous/borderline insane definition of "high fat".

@Islandgirl: Yay! You're back!!
"but they still defend Peat's advice while hiding their unhealthy, unattractive bodies behind a computer."
Where is that photo of yours, Islandgirl?

"American women are getting fatter and fatter everyday and I am so glad I am not a heterosexual male because I would be so repulsed by the sight of many American women."
According to the latest stats I've seen on the subject, about 74% of men in the U.S. are overweight, whereas the number is 64% for women.
So can I safely assume that you are even more "repulsed" by the sight of the average American man?

@Westside: She was not an ounce overweight by any metric.

"I remind you, that girl never showed proof that she is a real, professional "bodybuilder." And she just said that she does "olympic weightlifting."
I never said that she was a "professional" bodybuilder, either. Straw man. You're making this so easy, it's going to stop being fun. Next....

Edit: http://win.niddk.nih.gov/statistics/

you're also creating a straw man by saying that I was telling her that she was fat. I didn't say that. I was simply telling her that she needs to be aware of her fat intake, and that if she eats 100 grams of fat every day and wonders why she has problems well that is a good place to start.

@Islandgirl, are you female, as your moniker suggests? Your linguistic choices, to my ear, are those of a male? Which is cool, I'm just wondering?

And are you from an island, if you don't mind my asking? Again, your linguistic choices strike me as those of a high population density denizen.

lindsay,

i know how cold it gets in the northeast. but its only from around november to march that it is really cold. claiming that because of that, you need to have excess body fat, is again, an excuse for having excess fat, especially when living there you are in a heated home and heated car when it is cold.

i don't care what anyone on any forums does either way. my comments are simply for conversational purposes for people to make their own decisions. I'm not trying to make you eat the way i do. i couldn't care less how everyone else eats. but i enjoy talking about it because I've learned a lot in the last 8 years since getting into it. people get emotional about diet, I'm don't care for that, i care for the truth and objectivity.

@kapow, what is your derivation of "kapow"? Is it a trait associated with being a woman?

I ask because I think there are four women posting on this question, which may be some sort of record for this forum. Rumor has it you can't have an active forum without a good ratio of women.

@W PUFAs, "i know how cold it gets in the northeast. but ... claiming that because of that, you need to have excess body fat, is again, an excuse for having excess fat"

You're flame-baiting, so you're going to get flamed. Just own it.

Aside: I try to flame-bait, too, but you get more a lot more takers than I do, so you may be better at it than I am, or worse, depending on your perspective.

no, just being honest. call it what you want.

@W&P and IslandGirl: you misunderstood what I meant about women having higher body fat percentages. I'm not saying being fat is acceptable and good - although I believe every person is free to live and eat how they want. However, as someone who suffered with eating disorders for much of my adult life, I'm still conscious of my weight, but realistically now. Meaning, I note how I feel with what I eat and try to eat in a way so that I don't gain lots of fat but still feel healthy and energetic.

What I meant by what I said is that a female who is perfectly slender and lean will still have a higher body fat percentage than a lean male because women are built with a tiny bit more padding - because we reproduce and have things like breasts. There is nothing wrong with body fat - there are reasons we need and have it. It is there for protection. Why do you think people under stress tend to gain fat in their middle? Because the body is trying to protect itself. That's why weight piles on after starvation. The body compensates.

So what I really meant to say is that women are just built differently then men. Their bodies naturally carry a higher fat percentage. You would never look at a beautiful body like that of Scarlett Johansson or Jennifer Lawrence and say, "she's fat!" Those curves are beautiful and feminine.

And regarding where I live W&P, I don't just sit inside and gloat all winter. I've always been active and will go for a walk when it's 7 degrees outside - eating some more fat keeps me warm. It doesn't make me fat. And eating low fat never resulted in reduced body fat for me, so I'd just assume keep eating my cheese and be happy. I'm still considered to be quite lean, so what does it matter?

@Vision: My username is simply a combination of my first and last names. :-)

Many moons ago, I was hired, to my complete horror, to play the "hot girl" in a couple of theatrical productions. One of them required very revealing outfits, and the other one required that I appear in a bikini. I was thin, but I spent a quite few months on pretty extreme diets, because just moderately restricting my caloric intake did not make me "thin enough", from my perspective. As thin as I got, I still didn't feel comfortable on stage, because I felt that my thighs were too big. And almost nobody told me that I got too thin. Almost everyone told me I looked fantastic. The only problem was that I had stopped menstruating, and had also lost muscle. And probably bone.

Something similar happened when I was 14. I was about to star in some high school production, and I restricted my caloric intake enough to stop menstruating. You may think that that is no big deal, and perhaps it's not. But it sometimes ends in osteoporosis or worse.

There's a recently posted video on youtube about Tina Fey, who is not at all overweight, and in her mid 40's, and at least 3 different men ridiculed her for being overweight! Two of them had their photos posted with their username, revealing them to be overweight themselves. This is revealing so let me reiterate:
On a recent video about Tina Fey, who is in her mid-40s and not overweight, at least 3 men (two of whom are overweight themselves) called her "rotund" and a "heifer" and ridiculed her for her "childbearing hips". Overweight women do not ridicule the physiques of normal-weight men. Just imagine if they tried! This is about deeply rooted misogyny. And it's not limited to men. Islandgirl has repeatedly made some of the most misogynistic comments I've ever seen.

You may look at a woman and assume that you know enough about her to know whether or not she needs to lose weight, or that her hip, thigh, butt fat is just unhealthy "excess", but in all likelihood, you don't. And probably ought to just shut the fuck up.

@Westside:
You wrote: "you're also creating a straw man by saying that I was telling her that she was fat. I didn't say that. I was simply telling her that she needs to be aware of her fat intake..."

Here are just a few of your statements on that thread:

"having excess body fat is not healthy..."
"Excess fat puts you in an estrogenic state...."
"Hormones balance out when one loses all excess body fat. "
"There is no shortcut. You just have to put in the work to get a healthy body."
"Simply sitting on your ass while shoving cream, butter, cheese, milk, and too much meat down your throat will only hinder progress."

Keep in mind, as you reread these comments, that you are a man with excess fat advising a woman without an ounce of excess fat.

To be honest,
I blush reading these comments sometimes. It gives me no pleasure to tell someone that they are making a total ass of themselves.

Sometimes I just feel like IslandGirl and WhateverPUFAs would be the perfect shipping.

I can perfectly imagine them living together bitching at each other while chewing on beans and grains all day. They would live in a house with McDougall pictures everywhere somewhere on an island, ridicule supplements and many diets saying everything is 'snake oil' while trying out different diets all the time.

Their love to tell others how fat they are is not only limited to each other though, they especially love to do it together to others - they'd just walk outside and tell every person how fat they are, while being fat themselves.

When their estrogen levels are especially high, they like to throw eggs and butter at fat children.

Weekend PUFAs also always asks men to show their manboobs, cause IslandGirl often is too masculine for him and he likes to explore his 'other' side as well. Men with boobs often even seem more feminine to him. He sees himself in fat men and because his narcissism is so strong, he finds himself attracted to men having manboobs as well.

Also it should be obvious, IslandGirl is wearing the breeches in that relationship. She's the dominant one, but Weekend PUFAs always dreams to take it from her one day. Maybe it will be the day when he looks the way he wants to look, when he finds all his strength to finally... be the man.

IslandGirl on the other hand, is secretly lesbian. She is jealous of beautiful women with a more feminine and more easy-going mental state and often dreams she would just be more feminine as well. But because it never really came true, she 'developed' homosexuality and is instead attracted to them. Whenever she still tries to act more 'feminine' it fails, so being together with Wheat&PUFAs is pretty much a 'booby prize', in the literal sense.

Yes, I'm a bit bored at the moment. Don't take this comment seriously and sorry at Lindsay for not really helping. ;)

Karin,

I admit that it was stupid of me to tell that person “you’re hopeless.” The reason I said that to her is the exact problem with everyone on health/nutrition forums. Everyone is too emotional over what they believe is true, and we want to project that emotion on everyone else. That is really dumb because even if I may be right about what I am telling that person in that moment, it is highly unlikely that they are going to take my actual advice anyway. I used to say that I enjoy talking/arguing about nutrition but I think that passion is starting to fade, quickly. I don't know why you are so trusting of what people say on any given thread. You are still maintaining that she actually, truly, is of the weight she claims. I was just simply trying to let her know that she should acknowledge her fat intake because she didn’t mention anything about cutting it and the reason I wanted to let her know was because for me, personally, it is something that has helped me, so I wanted to spread that message around. But see, look at me, I’m, already going back to “that,” just a few sentences later I’m already going back to what I believe is true and arguing it with passion. It is a never ending cycle. I am going to do a few more posts, and after that, I think I’ll leave all nutrition forums.

"Keep in mind, as you reread these comments, that you are a man with excess fat advising a woman without an ounce of excess fat."

The difference is that I actually admit that I am, unlike most people on forums. And again, you do not know what that person truly looks like, or her body fat. I am someone who is trying to progress, not hold myself back by being dogmatic.

"I blush reading these comments sometimes. It gives me no pleasure to tell someone that they are making a total ass of themselves."

I'm glad you found something you enjoy but do you know who you're talking to? Haha! You're talking to the guy who wrote this:

http://peatarian.com/22199/ray-peat-isnt-working-for-me

Do you really think that I will be convinced by you, that I am "making an ass of myself?" Please. You give yourself too much credit.

And Kiwi just proved my point even more. I'm surrounded by idiots here. I want to surround myself with people who are smarter than me, not dogmatic fools.

1v1 me rust.

i rek u fgt

you're a homophobic redneck piece of shit

Wait W&P - were you implying I'm fat? Because I'll happily direct you to my profile pic so you can see the lack of fat on my face and neck despite my love of high fat cheese (that pic was taken just a couple weeks ago).

Kapow - I applaud you for what you wrote!! You rock!!

Kiwifruit - you just gave me a good laugh above :)

W&P - what works for you didn't work for me. In fact, I got appendicitis during my starch-escapades. Now I can hardly eat a potato without getting bacterial issues. So I've opted for foods that don't give me bacterial upset (which coincidentally leads to weight gain). Don't get me wrong - I love starch and would happily eat it if it didn't cause me issues, but it does. A little white rice on my sushi rolls is all I can handle. And I'm very un-dogmatic about my diet. I eat sushi. And just bought peanut butter (oh the horrors!) I eat what I like and what works for me - just like you do for you. If going low fat had gotten me somewhere, I would have stuck with it, but it didn't. Once summer comes, I will likely naturally gravitate towards more low fat foods (because in summer, fruit is king). And your claims are very independent. There are plenty of countries in the world that eat lots of SFA and have very lean people. Like France.

"And Kiwi just proved my point even more. I'm surrounded by idiots here. "

lol, have you read your posts? They're concentrated trash/idiocy, they don't even seem written by a person who is awake. It's sort of like a weird stream of consciousness/dream. Lately you've been the most embarrassing poster on this site.

j.,

I wish I could post the picture of you that comes up on google when you search your name. But I know that Dan Wich, Lindsay, or Bruno will quickly delete it so I won't. If people knew what you looked like, they would laugh. And they would be very skeptical of your mega dosing Vit. E and hormones.

^ Just for the record, I have no control over what gets deleted on this site. Please leave me out of this.

linds, You're listed as a moderator so I assumed you have the powder to delete. I guess Bruno and DW are the only ones. Karin and I were not talking about you, we were talking about someone from another thread. I've been to France. I saw plenty of fat people when I was there. And you don't know how much cheese any given random person eats. Blanket statements like that don't mean anything.

Thanks so much, Lindsay. I know it's off topic, but on a positive note: your blog is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. :-)

^ Thank you Kapow :)

"linds, You're listed as a moderator so I assumed you have the powder to delete."

I did not know that. But I'm not sure I can do any such thing. Besides, I've been spending more time at RP Forum (or doing other things in life) because there is a huge lack of female representation on here these days. So I don't particularly care what anybody posts. There's just way too much hostility on here.

Lindsay,

What cheese do you eat?

Hi Health,

I eat many different kinds of cheese - my favorites lately have been Havarti and different kinds of cheddar. I try to get them with animal rennet or just labeled as "enzymes" when possible.

I also really love fresh Mozzarella (the stuff made from Buffalo milk is amazing!) and gouda. Really, there are very few cheeses I don't like, but in general, I prefer the kind I can slice and eat - not cheeses I have to eat with a spoon. I do like ricotta, but it doesn't agree with me all the time. I guess I need to just make my own.

One thing I really miss here in the US is Tvorog (at least that's the Russian name). It's supposedly similar to Quark - it's just cheese curds and it's kind of like the Squeaky cheese from Quebec (Poutine). It's usually very low in fat and good with honey and in baked goods. But I cannot find it where I live and cottage cheese is nothing like it.

Hi Lindsay,

I do like cheese as well, but all of them are with a vegetarian rennet, cultures or enzymes.

Oh, yes I miss also here Tvarog,I quess is similar type of cheese I used to eat when I was in my home country, it's not the same like cottage cheese in England.
Mozzarella is also made with rennet?I have seen buffalo mozzarella and its labeled for vegetarians, not sure if it's with enzymes.

@Lindsay You're such a foodrebel.....eating PUFA laden Peanutbutter!;)

I crave fattier lower carb foods too at the moment,bc it's cold and rainy here too. I'm also thinking about incorporating some fatty fish again(herring). The Peatish approach seems to have totally backfired on me,so I think it's time to go back towards a more Paleoish/Primal template and I'm gonna try to make fermented veggies for the healthy bacteria.
Maybe in Summer I can get away with some more fruits&sugars and lower fat,bc of more sunshine. (provided that it's not gonna be a rainy Summer).

I noticed you said that all dairy causes you problems except for cheese. It's the same for me (though I don't eat any cowcheeses) and for me I think it's bc most cheeses contain no lactose. I suffer from fructose malabsorption and I've read that lactose goes through the same digestive process,which usually makes lactose problematic in fructose malabsorption too.

"Many moons ago, I was hired, to my complete horror, to play the "hot girl" in a couple of theatrical productions."

Ahh, I see now. That explains a lot about you.

To your "horror?" Please. You know you loved the attention. And the fact that you were in that environment shows that you were seeking attention.

Good looking people get treated differently, both men and women. It is just a matter of fact. And good looking people are usually batshit crazy, one way or another, because of how other people treat them, and have treated them since they were a kid. Look at the Freelee hater lady I posted, she used to be hot, now she's a whale, and she's batshit. The hottest girl in high school was always crazy, which was always confirmed by the guys she dated. And similarly, the good looking guy acted crazy when the tables were turned and his hot girl ignored him. These are common examples of sociology. Celebrity culture is another example. Kim K has the most followers on instagram because of her unique face, and she is followed mostly by young girls. If she didn't have her face, no one would care. Look at civilizations throughout history, paintings, stories etc., the unique looking people were always treated special. People are shallow, on this subject.

haha!! I had a feeling that you would say something like this when I first posted it. Let me assure you: I have never been known as the prettiest girl in the room/class, etc. It's just the nature of theater: Actors can kind of morph their looks onstage. I would never have been offered such a role in a film. I did love the theater, but I did NOT enjoy either of those two roles: I was just taking what I could get at the time. :-)

I buy the organic pastures milk too. I used to get the skim because it's much cheaper and I was drinking lots of milk. Now I drink about a cup a day so I just buy the whole milk. If I'm eating a bunch of cereal I just water it down.

@Dutchiee: I really miss Peanut Butter - I used to eat it all the time and was never overweight as a result, so I figured, what the heck!! Plus, Earth Balance brand makes a new PB that's made with Coconut & Palm fruit oils. Don't know how accurate the nutrition label is, but it's mostly Monounsaturated and Saturated fats, so I decided to try it and it's awesome!

I've been gravitating towards lower carb recently - I still eat some Oranges and OJ and juice, but not a lot of sugar. Sugar makes me feel kind of not great, unless I can eat all the sugar via fruit - and in winter it's too difficult. Plus, I've been trying to eat more protein. I think I'm just looking to balance my diet. RP always seems to imply that carbs are important for metabolism, but that people can overdo them. And not everyone can handle them the same. One thing I've noticed since I started eating less sugar and more fat is that a wart I've had for a long time on one of my fingers is finally going away - this probably has to do with whatever the effects on my liver have been.

@Lindsay You don't need to explain or justify eating PB to me. There are lots of men and women who love eating PB and peanuts and they're by no means overweigth. I see a lot of bodybuilders that eat PB and/or almondbutter.
Personally I don't eat it bc I've never liked PB or peanuts.
That's interesting what you mentioned about the ward on your finger. When I started Peatish inspired eating,I develloped this little ward/mole/bump (dont know what it is) between my rigth eyebrow and the start of my nose. Lately,I noticed that it's (finally,Thank God!) shrinking. I'm thinking if the carb especially sugar threshold migth be very dependant upon the climate in terms of strong sunligth during the day to burn the sugar off,especially fructose which is stored in the liver.(The Kitavan always are being cited as a pro-carb argument,but they live(d) in a pretty much year round sunny climate). So,since we live in darker/colder areas this time of year,it somewhat would make sense that our livers are overburdened with all the fructose/sugar coming in without sunligth to trigger the activation to burn/use the fructose.

Lindsay,

I drink raw goat's milk, but not a lot, still I try to figure out how I am doing with milk.I cannot get here cheese without enzymes.
It looks like I do fine with greek style yogurt made from sheep or goats.

Never before I had a problem with cow's milk, I grew up eating dairy.

answered Feb 9, 2015 by Health
edited Feb 9, 2015 by Health

That's good to know health!! I'm not saying this is actually true, but for many in the US milk is a problem and we apparently have different milk. I feel like the UK has much better dairy than we have, but I don't know. There are definitely lots of sheep there!!

I can get sheeps milk yogurt, as well as goats milk yogurt. They are pricey and I don't particularly love yogurt, but I might try making it at home. Thanks for your input!!

Lindsay,

You can get in the UK good quality milk.
I order once a week grassfed raw goat's milk from a smaller farm.

I do not like normal yogurt too, but I strain it. I leave it overnight in the strainer in the fridge and in the morning it's nice and creamy and it's not sour like normal yogurt.

Grassfed raw Goats' milk sounds delicious!! I really prefer the taste of goats' milk, but it's not as readily available in the US (unless you live by a farm with goats) and it is VERY pricey. I paid something like $9 for a 1/2 gallon.

Yes, it's very expensive :( I paid extra for shipping on top of it! I can afford only a small amount, so I drink only one cup of milk everyday.

I've become a believer in raw dairy after trying some raw aged cheese. Don't have access to any other raw dairy though.

answered Feb 10, 2015 by Shredder

I love raw dairy - especially raw cheese. I can get raw cow's milk, but not raw goats' milk. I'm going to try raw jersey cow's milk too - there are a few local farms that sell it, but they are about 45 min. to an hour drive.

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