This archived forum used to be called 'Peatarian' (in reference to Ray Peat).

Success stories

Has anyone else noticed that these forums are somewhat devoid of success stories?

Is Ray Peat the final stage of orthorexia, either catapulting the follower into a complete fear of western medicine or a much needed "fuck it" mentality taking with them the intermittent avoidance of PUFA and the bad ass disposition to consume any and all sugar…?

Things I like: Pregnenolone, fruit, and pretty much knowing more than everyone.

Things I don't like: Feeling worse than everyone I know more than, and being terrified of cold, doctors, and food.

Please share if you have had success.

asked Dec 16, 2014 by Zach Shane

you can't be successful until you leave peat behind. but it is a necessary part of the journey.

"""

I now go away alone, my disciples! You too now go away and be alone! Thus I want it.
Truly, I advise you: go away from me and guard yourselves against Zarathustra! And better still: be ashamed of him! Perhaps he has deceived you.
The man of knowledge must not only love his enemies, he must also be able to hate his friends.
One repays a teacher badly if one always remains only a pupil. And why, then, should you not pluck at my laurels?
You revere me; but what if your reverence tumbles one day? Beware that a statue does not strike you dead!
You say you believe in Zarathustra? But of what importance is Zarathustra? You are my believers: but of what importance are all believers?
You had not yet sought yourselves: then you found me. Thus do all believers; therefore all faith amounts to so little.
Now I bid you lose me and find yourselves; and only when you have all denied me will I return to you.

"""

imo the major failing of the peat diet is the lack of gut bacteria support

have you been reading up on the whole resistant starch thing going on?

the basic gist is to eat lots of potatoes and rice and tubers, vegetables, and fruits in order to support good gut bacteria

its basically the opposite of peat. well not opposite, but its at least orthogonal to.

you can read up at

bganimalpharm.blogspot.com

for me, it works. i feel better doing that kind of stuff. still eat tons of carbs, fruits, dairy, but now i eat lots more meat, veggies, whole fruits instead of juice, tons of starches now (just rice and potatoes), lots of fermented things like kefir, yogurt, kimchi/kraut. whatever.

i also dont drink milk nemore. just cheese or yogurt or kefir.

i also started using iodized salt again. its good shit.

http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf

decent pdf incase you decide to try this out.

i notice u still seem orthorexic as fuck. you gotta snap outta dat bro. start eating some pederders and rice. get some well cooked veggies in. drop the oj and milk start eating some solid substitutes.

youll get healthy quick in this way. you said you still react to starches though? can you explain

"you can't be successful until you leave peat behind. but it is a necessary part of the journey."

I agree with that ^

items which have been turned into Peat dogma that i realized don't work for me: salting everything, not engaging in balancing the water content of your diet, sugar, coffee, no veggies, no starches. however, i'd say it's still pretty "Peaty" if we must. i get 1tbsp sugar a day instead of 3 or 4. i cut my salt in half. i keep liquids minimal. i only drink one small cup of coffee a day. i eat low-starch veggies like cucumbers, zucchini, onions, etc.....and i have only recently took a turn in eating more root vegetables like potatoes, turnips, and parsnips. I don't say this to influence changes one should make, i'm just saying that even though it's pretty different from the popular Peat diet - it's actually very "Peaty". Specific items which still apply to me: careful with inflammatory amino acids, get enough calcium, carbs are necessary, use shellfish and organ meats, fruit, aware of all the inflammatory things added to foods (which for the most part do affect me negatively).

E the Juice- wise words. I'm not privy to the resistant starch movement but have heard its warming people up quite nicely.

yeah, it has something to do with allowing the growth of bacteria in the colon that put out tons of SCFA which apparently really helps with body temps.

i'm not a fan of eating raw potato starch like some do to get this effect, I think they take it too far. what I do is to make baked potatoes or roasted potatoes in the oven and to just eat them after they have been in the fridge at least overnight.

i mean its pretty normal. I just make like 8 potatoes on sunday and eat them throughout the week with my meals like a normal person. heating them back up again doesn't ruin the benefits.

eating lots of whole fruits and whole veggies is supposed to allow better diversity as well.

I definitely feel better eating like this. more consistent energy levels, mental clarity, etc.

from a peat perspective it might explain the raw carrot... apparently eating dirty carrots gives your body a supplement of something called SBO (soil based organisms) which is just bacteria that help us when they are in our system.

on that topic i definitely noticed benefits from eating some yogurts, kefir, kimchi/kraut, etc.

there are supplements you can take too but i haven't gone down that path

ray peat's an idiot. his diet hasn't done shit for me. on the other hand, matt stone has gotten me much better results. i ain't a peatarian, I'm a stoner.

Lol. I can relate to your frustration, but lets not forget that Stone is influenced by Peat, just leaving behind the liquid and starch recommendations, while keeping the PUFA and sugar ones. I am reading some Stone as we speak, and I think he has an intelligent approach to thyroid, and explaining what I already figured out from you guys here, which is that coffee causes me to dump water like crazy, and too much liquid makes me cold.

I've been researching competitive eaters. the key for me is eating an extremely high amount of calories. 4000+ per day is my goal (i'm 6ft tall 175 lbs now, 25 lbs: my bmr minimum is like 2000 calories, 2500-2600 if I'm active) i would like to get up to 190 lbs

u should check out matt stonie on youtube

hes matt stones competitive eater alter ego

Sprach on brother Juice . . .

Haha re: Matt Stone. He seems well intentioned but his overfeeding advice is disastrous for middle aged females. Why listen to Matt Stone when you can have the OG, Ray Peat? Also Matt is losing his hair and looking pretty chubby these days...

I agree with you on the hair and composition, assuming the former is actually modifiable by diet (Roddy approach) but I think he does more good than harm in the scheme of things, since many coming to him are malnourished and scared of food. There are actually testimonials on his website of people regrowing hair and getting their period back, something these forums are lacking. Again, context is everything, and these people could have come off of 2 year diets eating nothing but sprouts and almond flour, so who knows.

drop the oj

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG.

Keep in mind people may use these forums to fix their health, and once they have done that, they may not return. So I'm sure there are a fair share of success stories. They just have no reason to visit the site anymore.

There are plenty of people over at STTM that have fixed their health with Cytomel or Desiccated Thyroid. It's a more tightly knit community and people send in testimonials all the time. And those people have no damn clue what they are doing sometimes. Using hydrocortisone, minimizing carbs, taking fish oil, taking iron, etc. So I wouldn't say a lack of success stories discredits Peat's work. People don't care to share their success. And the other people have yet to figure out how to apply Peat's work properly.

STTM gives people step by step instructions on how to analyze labs, dose things, etc. These forums can be overwhelming and confusing. Unless you by Danny Roddy's shit, there is really no straight forward blueprint.

At STTM, they rarely discuss dietary adjustments and they still see plenty of success stories. Sometimes, I think there is too much emphasis on what to eat and what to avoid around here, and not enough emphasis on using thyroid hormone, which IMO, everyone should be doing. We live in a time that can be highly demanding and taxing on the human body. That's why there are so many people with alcohol and drug problems. There are a lot of stressors in combination with a low quality food supply and limited access to the right foods, so I think most people need a crutch, because trying to perfect a diet is close to impossible.

13 Answers

The worst I've ever felt was during the period that I ate a strict "Peat diet" of milk, OJ, meat, coffee, etc.

The best I've ever felt (which is about where I am now) has been when I've eaten the most "normal" diet, including such questionable foods as gluten-filled pasta, carrageenan-containing ice cream, rice+beans, omega3-filled salmon, PB+J's on whole grain bread, the occasional restaurant meal cooked in seed oil, etc.

I'm still conscious of how much PUFA I eat, but I mostly just eat what I want, because I know from experience that if I deviate too far from my cravings, I start to feel bad. Having read Peat has made me a lot more comfortable with the fact that these cravings are often for shit like pizza, bowls of cereal, coke and ice cream.

answered Dec 16, 2014 by Kasra

yeah, following cravings is really important. can't cheat your own body and get away with it.

I've been peating for three years. It works beautifully. I feel strong and good, and look it too.

I'm still neurotic, which I guess is a mental thing, and drink a lot. My one great peat sin.

But otherwise, whenever I stray -- pizza, ice cream with carrageenan, nuts -- I definitely feel it. My mind gets dull, I feel lethargic, my limbs feel slightly arthritic.

Eating a carrot after eating shit food helps, though. (It works for boozing too.)

Peating definitely works. It's not just in your head. I've eaten delicious pizzas and felt incredibly crap right after.

Let's unpack this. Gluten filled pasta is only a problem for Celiacs. And I suspect that the gluten in wheat pasta is very different from the gluten in dough. Pasta is actually just a fiberous starch. The longer you cook pasta, the more it will raise blood sugar. The less you cook it, the more firm it is, the more it is like a fiber that just passes through. Pasta is a great starch. Maybe the carrageenan in the ice cream you eat is in very small amounts. it is one of the last ingridients in ice cream, meaning that there is only a very small amount of it in the ice cream. Rice and beans should be a part of everyones diet. The fat in salmon is probably not absorbed like free oils are. PBJ and bread is fine. The fat in PB is not like free oils. the occasional restaurant meal cooked in oil, like you said its occasional so its benign.

Kasra- Same here. I actually noticed that my tolerance for coffee got worse, inducing panic (drank coffee daily for 10 years) and my feet have never been colder. No amount of thyroid or sugar would warm them up. Actually, thats not true. 6 TBS of sugar would warm them up- for about 30 minutes. Then back to cold.
I have tried a cup of sugar throughout the day like some, but feeling great has not been a side effect.

Dogg, I agree with the carrot. It's nothing short of amazing how effective it is for headaches, nausea, and changing the flora. Do you just do milk and oj, or cups of sugar per day like others?

I have asked RP about the too much liquid making people cold phenomena and why breads and starches would make somebody warm while sugary liquids would not, but he ignored the question. I am curious to know why some can handle it while others get super hypo. Especially since by all bloodwork standards, (0.6-1.2 TSH) I am not hypo at all, and even taking thyroid didn't stop it. By avoiding liquids I can get my body temps upwards of 100 F and my feet feel like they're on fire.
I also flash back to my early 20's where I ate whatever the hell and drank like a fish. My health literally didn't start deteriorating until I consciously starting making an effort to eat healthier to combat the copious amounts of alcohol in my life. Looking back I can see that I was crushing my health by eating salads, nut butters, 30-40g protein per day, and very little carbs.

Weekend PUFAs:

Keep in mind that I am addressing a community that is built around Ray Peat's ideas about nutrition.

I have found those foods that I listed to be enjoyable and harmless, but many others here will probably disagree.

K.

I agree that it's important not to stress over food.

But keep in mind Kasra is early 20s so a history of bad diet and lifestyle wouldn't catch up with him until 10 years from now. That's when it tends to hit people hard.

I think people who are suffering from serious hormonal issues should disregard this "advice" to "eat what you want" completely. Sure a restaurant meal here or there is no big deal. But c'mon, all of these things - carageenan, salmon, peanut butter, gluten, etc are toxic if you've read anything from Ray Peat. Let's be clear this is not a "Peatarian" recommendation.

"But keep in mind Kasra is early 20s so a history of bad diet and lifestyle wouldn't catch up with him until 10 years from now. That's when it tends to hit people hard."

I don't know what hard is to you, but it definitely caught me by the time I was 16. I guess I drew a bad card. Glad to to say that, now age 22, peat ideas have given me my life back.

"Gluten filled pasta is only a problem for Celiacs."

There was a study that just came out which supported non-Celiac gluten sensitivity. It also happens that I've had bad reactions to high gluten breads, and a gluten heavy meal (lots of pasta) always makes me feel terrible.

"Maybe the carrageenan in the ice cream you eat is in very small amounts. it is one of the last ingridients in ice cream, meaning that there is only a very small amount of it in the ice cream. "

I don't know about carrageenan specifically, but I can literally taste the gum in most ice creams. It tastes terrible.

{disclaimer: i am only saying all of this because i have been all these things:} if people have "success with Peat" it is not because there is some kind of Peat protocol that works for everyone. Asking if anyone has had success with Peat is asking the wrong question. The irony is that a majority of the Peat Movement took/takes counsel that is at its core anti-dogmatic, and tries to enslave themselves again into dietary dogmatism and rules. Along with that, if Peat were in the role of a practitioner (which he never signed on to be as far as i know) he is seriously lacking in the education of how to apply his philosophies/understanding in practical, almost universal ways. But we can't fault him for this - he is more like the teacher, spurring on his students to think for themselves (RATIONALLY), but the tendency is for the student to not want to do their own perceiving. They would rather furiously take notes and idolize little snippets of things he's said, create arsenals of things the man has said.

However, i think the beauty is that Peat has MASSIVELY opened my eyes to the different variables of diet and physiology. It doesn't mean that if you've never read Peat that you aren't doing Peat. But many of us come from the burned out confused place of following diet religions most of our lives and detaching from our own bodies so that we get to the point where we no longer have an individual, perceptive thought. So many people need this re-training. If one is approaching Peat in this context, or learns to adopt this context, then Peat is a Godsend. For the population that goes from one diet to another, i really do believe that Peat is where that journey should end because he really does bring it all to a point. namely, i'm thinking of things like his anti-authoritarian views, his focus on oxidative metabolism (whether he explains how to activate this or not), and his efforts in bringing back carbohydrates as a valid macronutrient.

Do i follow the stereotypical Peat diet nowadays that is more the construct of over-eager students hanging on his every word? No. But do i constantly use the tools he gave me? yes. those tools and active engagement are what have helped me so much. For myself, i had to go beyond that and start learning how to heal. Peat doesn't teach one how to heal their own body or to be in health. I believe that's the last phase. Just because you leave Peat's classroom does not necessarily mean you are just saying "Fuck it". Anyone who says that has totally missed the point of the classroom.

answered Dec 17, 2014 by Nicholas
edited Dec 17, 2014 by Nicholas

I disagree. Some people's greatest lesson in life can be learning how to say "fuck it." Not just with diet, but with expectations and pressures from parents, teachers, religious leaders, and relationships. Ray Peat himself seemed to have taken this approach when it came to doing anything within the scope of real (peer reviewed) science. I admire the guy to the utmost, and in many ways wish that I could think like him. He bridged the gap between Broda Barnes work with thyroid, Hans Selye's work with stress hormones, and many others in science. Practitioner or not, he responds to hundreds of emails weekly, and has for years. I would just think that there would be more success stories circulating since he has touched so many. I would actually argue, that people are so fond of the guy that even if they wrecked their health they would never attribute it to his recommendations. Hell, Matt Stone has more testimonials of people regrowing hair and warming up then anyone in these forums, and I have not read any of his books or know anything about the guy other than the people here who claim their health improved drastically giving up excess liquids, you being one of them.

i don't really understand what you're saying or what the disagreement is....or how your comment relates to my answer.

The only really sane reply here. The reason many people fail on a 'Peat diet' is because there's not even a Peat diet. If there is one, it would just be what Peat eats on his own, because he thinks it works for him. But he wouldn't eat the same foods if it caused problems for him. Basically Peat is not about particular foods, but is more about a philosophy and balancing everything right, having a good thyroid function and a well-working metabolism/digestion. Many people first hearing about RP probably misinterpret him, because they read things like "a diet consisting of OJ+milk is protective for XY" and then think they need to drink just as much of the stuff as RP himself. I think RP would do a lot better if he pointed that out a lot more, as he should know people are usually too stupid to realize and try to copy everything. I don't even understand how someone could suddenly jump from their diet to only drinking OJ+milk, no offense.

As for success stories, I was able to improve my thyroid function, energy levels, well-being and my body temperature quite significantly on a Peat approach. Low body temperature, underweight, anxiety issues, a few more hair falling out, hypothyroidism and severely cold extremities are all gone. What does the RP approach mean? It's not a milk+OJ+eggs+coffee diet. I don't even drink coffee or eat eggs. The main changes were eating more, overcoming the 'fear' of sugars and saturated fats and implementing them back in and avoiding anti-thyroid foods and foods messing up my digestion as much as possible. Also looking for a good mineral balance and avoiding additives as much as possible. I'm still not paranoid and if eating abroad I sometimes do eat foods cooked in sunflower oil, for example. Another thing I don't do is supplements, ironically although RP suggests supplementing thyroid, my aim always was to not supplement thyroid anymore and in search for that I found out about him and his ideas on what causes hypothyroidism, what is good for proper thyroid function, and so on.

I agree self-restrictions and limiting foods is a bad thing. PUFAphobia and just not eating a lot of them in general are different things, and it can be applied to anything. I never stopped eating some salmon, for example. I like salmon.

yes, i think i counted it once, and like out of 75 articles, only maybe 5 of them actually were about addressing an actual food item. And his references to food in his articles, in general, are very casual....like an after-thought - like it's not really the point of what he's writing about, but he's willing to add in a little food comment.

I think there are few "success stories" because we are all a work in progress.

Achieving better health isn't something you just "master" and then declare yourself to the forum as a "success". Especially given the scope of Ray Peat's work - every time I read him I get something new out of it, even if I've read that article before. There are so many more things I want to try and test.

That said, it is logical that once people who are unwell start to feel better, they have less of a need to spend time on internet health forums. (Especially this forum... it has gone pretty whacko and negative here in the last year, like an anti-Ray Peat forum in fact.)

Re: orthorexia, Wheat&PUFAs or whatever he calls himself now had a great post on the orthorexia label. http://peatarian.com/11754/why-orthorexia-is-bullsh1t

Personally for me Ray Peat is about thyroid, thyroid, thyroid. Nobody else has come close to helping me understand hypothyroidism like this humble man has, and I will forever be grateful to him. My temperatures, pulse, energy, sleep, moods, skin and life in general have all improved from simply changing my thyroid medication (er, maybe not "simply" but 2 yrs of experimenting with the dose). The diet and things like cypro have also been life changing.

If you are feeling bad, cold and terrified of food I would say that is not even close to "Ray Peat". I'm just catching up with posts so maybe you've made another page about your issues. Are you taking thyroid again Zach?

answered Jan 3, 2015 by ilovethesea

Hey I lovethesea- I actually thought of you when I wrote this post, since you know you are probably the exception. Thanks again for writing me back.

I am currently not taking any thyroid and haven't been for about 3 weeks. Every time I ramp up (and I have tried on 4 separate occasions) I get terrible insomnia without any of my other hypo symptoms being alleviated.

Still have paradoxical symptoms, such as a perfect body temp of 98.6 all day long, with freezing cold feet for the first half of the day.

Also have an incredibly low wake up temp (assuming I sleep) of 96.5-97, which raises immediately after breakfast to 98.

I have tried things like OJ, which I am pretty sure gives me gastritis or ulcer like symptoms, and dairy, which leaves me with a chronically stuffy nose. Gelatin also can cause me upsets, (although it may just be while drinking Oj).

So what I am left with is essentially muscle meat and eggs, which we all know is suicide.

I am still hopeful, and I can honestly say I am not afraid of food, except maybe of RP amounts of sugar. When I was taking cups per day, it would take me absurd amounts to keep my feet warm. I would have 6TBS for breakfast, 3TBS in my juice, and 3 more in my coffee. My feet would get cold within an hour, and I would need another 5 TBS in some cottage cheese to warm back up. While I didn't feel bad, I didn't feel good either.

It seemed like sugar and fruit as my main carbs just get burned through ridiculously fast.

All and all, it is fun to experiment, and I do look forward to the day I can sleep through the night and have warm feet all the time. I am sure it's coming.

..

Sorry Zach just seeing your message now. Where are things at with you now? Hopefully much better. It does sound like you could be hypo with a higher body temp from stress symptoms. Have you considered starting again with thyroid? Do you take cypro for allergy symptoms? That and activated charcoal helped me a lot with allergy symptoms. Also I think VoS has a protocol of small amounts of milk and sugar every hour. Have you done an elimination diet test to make sure it's truly the dairy that you are allergic to? Do you eat potato?

Hey Ilovethesea,

Ive been doing pretty good! Still no thyroid, although I believe one drunken night I took 2 grains (1/2 cynoplus) to see what would happen, which gave me insomnia for 3 days and a hangover from hell. I cant tolerate alcohol like I used too, but I guess that just comes with turning 30!
I have been looking for a place to order cypro. Ray himself even recommended I try some for my digestive issues. Do you happen to know where to get it? Seems like there is some available for animals that I can get. As far as cold feet, lately, ive been eating a lot of calories and taking calcium carbonate. If I stay away from coffee, my feet stay warm all day. Sometimes they even get hot! I feel like they are burning up. So, again, either my thyroid is fine, or im diabetic. I have a very athletic body type despite not working out at all, so your theory of high stress hormones is what I thought after reading Broda Barnes work. My low wake up temps definitely cause me some concern, but even Dr. Barnes said in his book to not treat temperature, but symptoms.

I have been craving milk lately, but when I deink more than a glass it causes me gas 4 hours later.
Mornings are still very hard for me to get going, and I feel like I should have way more energy being only 29. I drink about a quart or more of apple juice and try to get 80-100 grams of protein every day. Coffee makes me crazy anxious now, and 5 hours later gives me heart palpitations. Then again, so does taking a few mcg of t3.
Since thyroid increases the stomach juices, I think people who already have gastritis or ulcer like symptoms can potentially exacerbate their symptoms while taking it. My digestion always seemed to be worse whole taking t3. This of course is just my n1 observation. Anways, thanks for checking up on me! I am sleeping some, so there is improvement. I will say that since eating more peatish (a year now) my eyebrows are getting thinner. Makes me wonder if stress hormones are coming down, while hypothyroid is coming up. Who knows.

Are you in the US? I believe cyproheptadine is prescription there but I'm pretty sure others have ordered it from Canada or Mexico. I'm in Canada and it is non prescription here - I have to take the liquid kind as I'm allergic to the pills (ironically). The drugstore just does a special order for me but it's not hard to get. I would be happy to send you some if you want. I pay about $30 a bottle from memory. It's good stuff!

1/2 a Cynoplus is 1 grain. That's weird you would have such a strong reaction to one dose. I wonder if you're one of those people Ray has talked about who can only tolerate 1mcg of T3 at a time, with food. Have you ever tried that?

The morning slowness, low energy and eyebrow thinning does seem to indicate low thyroid.

Are you taking coffee with a meal? The pectin in the apple juice might be contributing to the bad bacteria. Are you starch-free?

I think it's a big problem with thyroid that it exacerbates nutrient deficiencies. That's why sometimes it seems like things are getting worse not better. I've been experimenting with T3 for 2 years and it's only in the last 6 months that I stopped getting adrenaline symptoms. My nails actually got worse (weak/peeling) and I think it's because the thyroid made me need more vitamins. I've started on 1 tbsp frozen raw liver daily now, so hopefully that will help.

This forum seems to have a lot of doubting Toms. I have been studying nutrition for 6+ years, Peat's research is my favorite above all. It just makes sense to view nutrition in terms of generative energy. I don't know where I'd be if it weren't for all the smart people who follow him. I think people claim there is a 'Peat diet' but I don't think it should be viewed that way. Also, I have come across many before Peat who also recommended a milk feeding regime and/or fruit diet for the frail and sick. He is also not the only one to talk about toxins from the bowel.

I tried to do a 'eat the food' approach when I was going through chronic stress and lack of sleep and just kept getting worse and worse, was going through nausea, anorexia like symptoms (strangely since eat for heat is supposed to be about eating a lot of food!), scary anxiety attacks. I quit gluten and really started healing with mostly dairy, juice, sugar, bone broth w/rice and really making sure I was getting enough calories, salt, mag, potassium and sleep. I think those things have been the most beneficial to me. I also am healing with progest-e because my menstrual cycle was horrendous after lactational amenoreah for 21 months!

I kinda cringe when someone says they are doing great now that they are eating whatever, pizza and things like that. That approach was killing me. I would eat pizzas once a week and felt like utter crap afterwards. Maybe what people were really needing was calories and salt.

answered Jan 4, 2015 by janelle525

"I kinda cringe when someone says they are doing great now that they are eating whatever, pizza and things like that."

I kinda cringe when you talk about pizza like its something naughty

Then you have misunderstood, pizza is not naughty, when you are in good health pizza is not going to harm you, but for some people it could be bad advice to say eat lots of pizza, I am referring to the Matt Stone approach. I wish it worked for me because I grew up eating some of the best pizza in NY, but after chronic stress it was making me feel ill due to a gluten sensitivity.

well then that would make a few of us. the matt stone thing really irritates me - because people act like it's not a diet.....like doing that is somehow different than doing any other diet and wondering why you aren't getting better. i bet most people who do well on the "whatever" diet reach a threshold just like everyone else on every other diet. diets kill people.

I am going to preface what I say by first stating that I have no gallbladder and now, no appendix. The lack of gallbladder causes a wide range of digestive issues and difficulty absorbing nutrients. So, I have to supplement more.

That being said, I have never really cared about nutrition the way everyone on here does. I fell into it after a serious health issue almost 2 years ago that and made me realize that my nutrient poor vegetarian/vegan diet (I was a really bad vegetarian) was probably not good for my active lifestyle. So, I started eating some meat again, and dairy and sugar (I had been trying to cut carbs too) and then I discovered RP through a nutritionist I spoke with.

Since I discovered her first and then RP, I didn't dive into the Milk & OJ mentality that everyone here seems to do. The nutritionist had a more balanced approach. But diet didn't ever solve anything for me (maybe I was too rushed, or maybe I just couldn't handle lots of foods well). So I decided to look to supplements - this is where I saw change happen. It hasn't been easy, but I felt noticeable improvements taking Cynoplus & progest-e. I also recently started paying attention to cravings and I crave a wide variety of foods - lately it's been lots of sushi. And always cheese. I LOVE cheese. Adding in K2 to my diet has been good for my teeth. Fat solubles are so important I think, especially for me, where I cannot absorb them as easily.

I don't really understand protein balance yet. Everyone says it's so important, but there are very few protein sources I can eat enough of and not feel the inflammatory effects.

Instead of trying to care about fat to protein to sugar, I eat what I want and this usually helps - and I don't eat a lot either. I will never understand everyone's preoccupation with eating like 5,000 calories. It's unaffordable and unmanageable.

Digestion is always an issue for me, but avoiding starch has been key for this. We are all different and I just cannot eat lots of starch or I feel terrible. A couple pieces of good quality bread is about all I can tolerate. Maybe this will get better, maybe not.

So, all this to say that a modified approach to RP and listening to his thoughts on stress and hormones have been the most valuable for me. I feel better eating moderate fat (avoiding most PUFA's), sugars and proteins. And getting outside more, even in the cold. And doing some yoga. Also, engaging in creativity and stimulating the brain has been very good for me and is probably the hardest thing to do in our modern society.

answered Dec 31, 2014 by Lindsay

My experience is similar to Lindsay's. I found Ray Peat when searching for answers to solve my persistent female hormonal problems. Then fell down the rabbit hole with respect to thyroid and the rest is history... I am so much better now (although always still learning and improving).

I just can't see how anyone else in the nutrition field even comes close to what Ray Peat has to offer. Anyone who thinks it is just OJ and milk is missing the big picture - hormones, stress, diet and how they all work together. Not to mention his anti-authoritarianism, which is truly eye opening.

Hey Lindsey, thanks for that. I know how rough the gallbladder thing can be, as my mother has gone most of her life in a similar situation. I agree with everything you said. I like knowing about these stress hormones and how our bodies work. It's fascinating, and from everything I have learned, it is rather incredible how adaptable we are, even with missing organs!

Ray Peats anti-authoritarian approach is probably what makes most of his work so attractive. Genius-bad-ass-old-man who is still alive and eats cups of sugar? Sign me up!

@ilovethesea: how have you been feeling lately? have you got the thyroid dosage figured out? And yes - I agree with you about what RP has to offer. I don't say it lightly when I say that discovering his work has saved me from the destructive health patterns I had developed. I'm still not perfect, but now I feel empowered to work with my own issues and not be at the hands of doctors (who have actually caused me more issues).

@Zach: Yeah - I think that's the hardest part for me about discovering RP. I regret having my gallbladder removed. The latter two surgeries I've had in the past two years I didn't really have many options, but I'm glad I had RP's wisdom to get me through health wise. He's a pretty stellar guy.

I spent a little over a decade doing the blood type diet (but never managed to really get it) and also was basically paleo/primal. Starting in the late 90s I first did the Zone, then based on Peter D'Adamo's blood type ideas eliminated wheat and dairy, and then towards the end did a bunch of intermittent fasting, walking, intervals, and restriction of all grains. The last year I genotyped myself using D'Adamo's tests and started eating a "Hunter" diet. The last step would have been to buy the software and eat according to "SWAMI" recommendations. People on the bt forum said eating according to it made them feel the best ever, but I never got there.

In the almost 3 years I've been incorporating and trying to understand Peat's views, I still don't tolerate milk. Coffee does nothing for me, and sometimes I miss vegetables. The ideas I learned in blood type remain essentially true: I thrive on a higher calorie, higher carb (what I always got wrong) diet with a lot of exercise. Peter D'Adamo gets a lot of things right; if you go over to his board or read them for any length of time, you'll notice the same topics and a lot of repetition, but no one leaves or says they hate it. And that's because it more or less works. The main thing D'Adamo gets wrong is not admitting that Os need more than diet to deal with hypothyroidism. There's no discussion of Cytomel or even lab tests. Os can't have coconut oil, because the liver processes it like soap. There are tons of nuts and seeds recommended for all types, important for the many snacks blood typers need to keep themselves going due to the many blood crashes they have. Some lose weight, but most don't. Everyone is very food conscious and "sensitive", so there's a lot of topics that can't be broached- anything not in the bt gospel (one poster, a moderator, urges followers to "not try to take short cuts and go by the book"). You might say its kind of authoritarian or maybe even a cult. I was reasonably happy being part of it, till all the peri menopause stuff started.

Ray Peat may not have the right food list for everyone, but his supplements and explanations of how the hormonal system and energy fits together are totally right. Aspirin, eliminating PUFAs, and getting sunlight has saved my life. Vitamin A and cholesterol may have fixed many of my menopause issues, and at almost 45 my physical energy is similar to what it was when I was in my 20s. My legs seem slimmer and I don't have that "expanding waistline" look. I sleep through the night without getting up and most days I feel OK. So yes, Peat fixed my health problems and I'm better off than I was before.

answered Feb 27, 2015 by raintree

I forgot to mention digestive aids- charcoal, cascara and the carrot. I'm able to eat wheat in moderation and have somewhat improved bowel health. I think it may help mentally also.

@Raintree The bloodtype diets are kinda confusing&contradicting,with all these genotypes,SWAMI etc. It feels like every other time they come up with something new.
I've never stuck to it nor did a test,but I did find that most of the beneficial foods for my bloodtype (O) are the ones I naturally crave....and it seems like he's also on the rigth track regarding the higher protein and lower carb (and intense exercise).:/

I was surprised about the recommendation against coconut,but I saw that it also depends if you're an O+ or O-.

Yes my attraction to D'Adamo initially really was based on intuition. The O diet sounded right, like foods I either liked to eat or could see myself eating regularly.

I don't remember what the deal is about coconut oil. I think there's a current discussion about it on the board...Carrots aren't on the Hunter diet either. They're referred as a "black dot avoid", something you can have only in moderation once you've detoxified.

"These forums?" Which forums are you speaking of? This one and RPF? There's a lot of weridos on RPF. Notice Charlie took off the link to Peatarian on RPF.

It's all really Matt Stone and Danny Roddy's fault that Peat became popular on the internet health scene. Sometime in 2010, someone started commenting on 180DH about Peat, then Matt Stone started to get his idea of increasing the metabolic rate with carbs etc. At that time people were talking about taking warm baths sipping OJ and eating gelatin marshmallows. Roddy did an interview with Jimmy Moore in 2011, just a few months before going "Peat," and Roddy in that interview says that Gary Taubes is one of his heroes.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/the-llvlc-show-episode-444-danny-roddy-says-the-right-diet-plays-a-huge-role-in-reversing-hair-loss/10013

It was only a few months later that he started to become "Peat" and from there, posts about Danny and Peat on Paleohacks/Marks Daily Apple forums got Peat exposed to lots of people. If that didn't happen, this site and RPF would never have exisited.

People have taken Peat in all kinds of crazy directions. But people shouldn't be so stupid and do stupid things, but they do. I was one of them. I used to be a "Peat cultist." But I've grown out of it. I'm glad I went through "Peat" because it's changed my views and shown me a different perspective. It taught me to question everything.

I think people like Peat because of his name, Ray Peat. It sounds nice. He has a good name. If Ray Peats name was Ray McClinsky would people still like him? Would people say I'm "McClinskying?" I'm a "McClinskarian?"

answered Dec 17, 2014 by Westside PUFAs

Good post, and I see myself in what you describe. I think whats important is to keep your balance of opinion, people tend to go from one extreme to the other. I think its due to our racing society that doesnt find time to hold on for just a little bit.

Haha. "McClinskarianism"- He does have a nice name, but I think its because he's incredibly intelligent and humble, not to mention- alive.

People here advise statins, why wouldn't he take off the link? Why link to an anti Ray Peat website if you're promoting Ray Peat?

The RayPeatForum itself isn't a very pro-peat site. It's more of a Matt Stone style site (note he links to Matt Stone). Still, that's closer to Peat than the mainstream sadistic advocacy of disease and death that we see here.

You went from a Peat-cultist to a McDougall one. I can't really see how it's any different.

Anon is right.

Who are these "Peat cultists"? All I've ever seen on this site were people wanting to improve their health and experimenting with different things to find out what worked.

I do very well on a high carb Matt Stone-ish approach (with emphasis on refined grains and roots). I fill up on mostly starchy, low fat things and some fruit and then have a satisfactory amount of animal products with a meal (mostly beef, eggs, small amounts of dairy-not quarts). I also don't shy away from eating something fatty if I'm craving it, but generally I'm very satisfied without it. I'll eat anything offered to me and will try anything at a restaurant. But most of my meals are home cooked high carb.

For me, everything is secondary to simply having a constant supply of semi-whole food carbs digesting into my body all day long. So this means eating three fairly large meals a day. Trying to manipulate things with supplements never works for me unless I'm doing the above.

As far as supplements go the only things I do consistently because they actually make a difference are zinc, P5P B6, and glycine powder.

I'm grateful to Peat's actual writing for helping me understand how stress hormones suck and under eating is a great way to increase them. The Danny Roddy style liquid diet is orthorexic. How the fuck are you supposed to enjoy life and be a normal person if you don't like to stray from your staples of milk, OJ, and oysters? You can't. You will fail at life.

answered Dec 17, 2014 by Brian

Haha. While I agree, I am still curious as to why some get worse with liquid calories while others thrive… especially when the man himself won't answer.

I tolerate liquids just fine when I eat a high calorie diet. Or when I'm using pro-thyroid substances such as coffee and aspirin.

I have done well on high sugared milk and fruit juice for awhile (as a large part of my diet). I had definite signs of high dopamine/low serotonin, high sex hormone production. It just wasn't practical or palatable after awhile and I craved solid food and the creative recipes you can make with them.

I also tended to under eat on high liquids. Which eventually led to decreased metabolism and decreasing digestion to the point where I wasn't utilizing much of the milk anymore. I'm able to keep everything consistently running much better with starches as a staple (as well as appear and feel like a normal person).

^ The latter being probably the most valuable. What are signs of high dopamine and low serotonine that you speak of? Lowered inhibition?

Zach, your weather changes how easily you eliminate fluids.

All the good stuff. Warm all over, strong pulse, wake up feeling happy and jolly, easily turned on, sensitive to the pleasant things in the moment, past traumas feel like no big deal, and I feel very positive about the future and motivated to achieve something challenging.

My ability to achieve this state is much more consistent with my current approach.

Brian, maybe 'less liquids' is the main things that benefits you, not 'more starches'. If so, something like dulce de leche could have an even better effect (good source of carbs and some nutrients with little liquid).

Maybe, but I love starch and the infinite amount of things you can do with it by adding different flavors and textures. Dulce de leche does sound like a delicious way to get some dairy in though. It would go awesome with a nice salty, starchy meal.

There may be some benefits to avoiding starch, but it can't be that great because people obviously live long, healthy lives consuming it as a staple when eaten without vegetable oils.

Is there a good dulce de leche product out there? Or is it easy to make? Damnit now I'm craving some.

Yes, I understand the social aspects. When I'm home though, I just consume a lot of dulce de leche by itself.

Dulce de leche though might be expensive in some places. I think it's cheaper in most places in South America, probably a rare more expensive thing in the U.S. Peat mentioned though he consumed a lot of it.

Sure, you can find it on amazon in glass bottles, I guess it's expensive.

Maybe one has to move to Mexico or become rich to make it a staple (I don't know how to make it).

Anon
I am not sure what you mean by "your weather changes how easily you eliminate fluids"

Humid weather, hot weather, cold weather, each has different amount of ideal intake of fluids.

Lol- I was reading way too much into that.

Brian,

I've found a recipe, I quess is much more on the internet, it's not diffucilt to make dulce de leche

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Homemade-Dulce-de-Leche-395011

Success stories are few and far between. People see recommendations like high amounts of orange juice, milk and coffee and run for the hills. And rightfully so. What a ridiculous recommendation.

it's the reason Peat's following really has not grown like some other dietary approaches have. It doesn't fucking work.

^ Ok troll.

Yes, these forums are pretty much devoid of success stories, at least as far as those that actually go along with the gist of what's suggested.

The gurus that people pander to as the fonts of all knowledge are no better, and their wow evolutionary pro-whatever diet is dependant on meds they don't explicitly state that they're dependant on.

answered Dec 17, 2014 by LoveBlood

There are none on here and on RPF and for good reason. People are attracted to "Peat" on the basis on taking hormones to look younger, in an alternative, internet health quack manner, all the while shoving ice cream, butter, and cheese down their throats daily.

But there are plenty of success stories on The McDougall forum, such as this one:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35090

answered Dec 31, 2014 by Westside PUFAs

I don't see the problem with shoving butter and cheese down my throat. I'm a little more nervous about ice cream due to poor quality / nutrition (pure sucrose). I would only worry if I started to gain weight or if it hadn't improved my metabolism and thyroid function.

Oh dear, don't like that 'success' story at all. He has followed a calorie-restricted diet and lost a lot of weight. That's good. However, his heart rate is way too low.

Looking at those figures he should have stopped before he got to 180ibs and maintained that weight for a few months before re-evaluating. The trajectory is unsustainable. If he keeps going like he is, he will either get sick, or start overeating and rebound.

dumbass the CR was before, his long term success was from "cure a whole host of chronic diseases and “issues of aging” and do it without hunger, eating just real, simple, inexpensive food, as much as you want, whenever your hungry." there are many success stories on the starch based low fat diet. i bet you have manboobs.

I love you too.

You didn't understand me. The McDougall diet is calorie restricted. You feel full because all the veggies fill you with plant fibre. Certain veg are really filling - pumpkin, cabbage, asparagus etc. It's an old trick I know well. This makes the McDougall diet calorie restricting.

All successful weight loss diets restrict calories. If you don't understand this, well....I'm sorry for you...

BTW his previous diet of restricting to 1000 calories a day was insane. Of course McDougall is going to work better than that.

Unsurprisingly, for someone in as bad shape as he was, it was beneficial. Many people report benefits on a vegetarian/vegan McDougall style diet. However they are really not sustainable long term for most people.

If you look at the figures he's supplied all the benefit happened in the first three months of the diet, apart from the weight loss, which continued because he was eating fewer calories than he was expending.

Most concerning is the drop in his pulse to the forties. Frankly, the weight loss was too fast, which you'd see if you bothered to look at the figures.

Test Date................................02/28/2012.....05/26/2012.....08/25/2012.....11/26/2012......02/26/2013

Weight..................................261..................213..................180...............162...............154.8
BMI......................................35.4.................28.9.................24.4..............21.97.............21.0

BP.........................................153/92.............120/71..............98/54............96/64............96/62
Pulse.....................................88.....................48.....................46.................46..................45

He should have gone slower and paused the diet by eating calorie dense foods, imv; even vegans are allowed to guzzle buckets of honey and calorie rich smoothies laced with maple syrup and white sugar.

Now, if you learn to be polite and play properly with the other children, I'll let you jiggle my manboobs.

What you don't understand is that it's not about calories, it's about fat.

"You feel full because all the veggies fill you with plant fibre." - No, that is not what he promotes. He specially promotes the word starch as the main food and says that you will starve if you eat a diet of green and yellow veggies. And he's right, without the satiating starch, one will be hungry all the time.

It's not about calorie restriction, it's about fat, mainly oil and cream (cheese). People get fat from eating oil and cream. It is as simple as that. If you took oil and cream out of the equation, people would not be fat. People are not binging on avocados and nuts and seeds as much as they consume oil and cream daily. All of my fat friends go to Chipotle and everytime, they get cheese and sour cream on their burritos, they are not getting vegan burritos. People do not eat fat-free starch, if they did they wouldn't be fat. People consume tons of oil and cream in all of its forms.

I'm not concerned with the low pulse thing. That is a Peatland concept that I couldn't care less about. I am more concerned with blood sugar and diabetes. Maybe his low pulse is now from having the burden relieved of being a fat fuck. and in an estrogenic state.

Losing anywhere from 5 to 10 lbs a month is expected on this lifestyle if one truly cuts out fat. It's not too quick.

Check out these people -

potato strong - lost all of his weight and is still losing weight, no calorie restriction.

plant based athlete - does not calorie restrict. and his hot GF eats potatoes nearly everyday.

twins cure their really bad acne by cutting out fat and eating starch based

no CR for Frank, a Whole Foods Market Employee Lost Nearly 160 Pounds

in this video , John goes against everyone else at the vegsource event, as he always does, and explained why people have to use the word starch, specifically.

and the countless other testimonials.

Whole Foods sends some of their employees to the McDougall program because they know it works. But they still sell oil and cream. Well, thats business, and the business of them saving money on healthcare for their employees by sending them there.

"However they are really not sustainable long term for most people."

Yes because the thing that cured all of your problems is going to be the thing that causes them again. There are not many foods to choose from, what food would be missing from this that will "prevent" it from being "sustainable.?"

Whole Foods sends some of their employees to the McDougall program because they know it works

'Primal' also works - look at the testimonials all over Mark's Daily Apple. 30 bananas a day also works. Various low carb diets also work - I know, I've done it.

The thing is the diet that gets people to their target weight is not the diet that can keep them there.

Yes. Because the human body is an incredibly (over)complex machine who cannot be always and ultimately serviced by matters as simple as diet, or even supplementation of isolated molecules.

Sometimes the success stories that people wish for are not possible. Sometimes things are a one way street in biochemistry.

I will echo Kasra here and say that I have also felt absolutely fucking terrible when I followed most of the 'Peat' recommendations to the letter. Drinking OJ and sugared coffee all day long, those were some dark times.

In the 2 years that I've been trying to repair myself I feel the best now, when I mostly don't give a shit about what I eat (I eat the stuff that doesn't make me feel worse) and using some things that I have personally found efficient.

The only thing 'useful' overconsuming sugar did for me was increase my T3 and lower my T4, note I did not say that made me feel at all better.

Yes, you need to abandon Peat, unless Peat is what works for you, and even then there may be something that works better, so don't abandon anything, but mix and match things until you found your own personal combination.

What's more important, following someone's dogma or feeling better? Once you go desperate enough, there is only one protocol that wins out, it's called "Everything but the kitchen sink". Do what you have to do.
Experiment. That's your only chance. Apologetic people are the ones who are not that sick, they take sides. Sick, desperate people will try almost anything.

answered Dec 31, 2014 by JuiceUser

felt absolutely fucking terrible when I followed most of the 'Peat' recommendations to the letter.

People keep saying this here without properly considering causality. You relaxed your diet because you felt a lot better. You tried a very strict diet because you felt lousy. Eating random things didn't make you feel better.

Causality is that I started eating 'Peat' foods and many things worsened.
When I dropped them and sought out foods that did not harm me( regardless of whether they were 'Peat' or not) I started feeling better.

felt absolutely fucking terrible when I followed most of the 'Peat' recommendations to the letter.

Well, there's your problem. As many people have pointed out, Peat doesn't have a dietary protocol that can be followed to the letter. He gives ideas about what is appropriate food for a human.

Peat is a good antidote to the Paleo/keto insanity that has gripped the health world. He's also a good antidote to the 80-10-10 nonsense. He's sceptical of starch, and rightly so in my view, so suffer McDougall and co.

But there are some really good things you can take away from Peat. One is, for example, that you shouldn't be afraid of desert.

There are many other ideas inspired by Ray's articles that don't involve sugar. In fact, the articles themselves don't say that much about sugar, and less so about eating large amounts of it. Eating food to increase thyroid hormones, metabolism, reduce cortisol etc. that doesn't say or imply at all how much sugar you should eat per day.

I can't imagine anyone would feel good on a diet of OJ and coffee, LOL! Not sure where that idea came from :)

I'm glad you decided to increase your sugar JuiceUser. You came to Ray Peat's ideas with existing thyroid issues and that takes quite a bit of time to fine-tune and build up your glycogen, cholesterol, vitamin A, protein, etc. in order for your body to use thyroid correctly. You were doing calorie restriction or intermittent fasting as well, if I remember correctly?

I think the criteria for success here are not clear. Are you improving your symptoms of insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, fatty liver, and pre-diabetes? How are you measuring that? Do you test for liver enzymes?

Are you improving your cortisol and adrenaline responses to stress? And how are you measuring that? Do you track your visceral fat with MRIs?

Are you improving the endotoxic burden of your intestines? How do you know? Are you taking stool samples?

If we know anything from Peat it's that there are so many ways that we could be harming ourselves without realizing it, thinking all the time that we "feel good" because our adrenal glands are keeping us alive, while glucocorticoids are wreaking havoc invisibly.

If you've ever gotten your body temperature up over 100 degrees, you know that you don't "feel good" --- but your body is regenerating and healing.

Bro, eat all the food.

I've eaten WAY more sugar than you just talked about eating for breakfast, and I'm not dead.

Stop chugging OJ, stop chugging milk, it will only make you colder.

Eat stuff like pizza, cereal, salty eggs, sugary foods low in potassium [i actually make simple syrup and just eat tbsp of it at a time].

Watch your calories, aka don't go from 1,500 cals to 3,000 cals a day all at once, and you shouldn't gain weight.

Don't eat too much fat.

Eat sugar at every meal to counteract cortisol.

Just keep working on it dude, and don't do what Ray Peat says. Do what makes you feel better.

Peat is a genius, but he is in a much better physiological state than the average person. Eventually you'll be able to chug milk and oj, but not in the state your in. The colder you are, the less liquid and potassium you should be eating, the more sugar, starch, and salt.

answered Mar 2, 2015 by hazmatt

What is the advantage of starch? It converts to pure glucose. Except for the fiber which may make your small intestine feel "full" while endotoxic bacteria build up to decompose whatever industrial contaminants you may have unknowingly swallowed.

There is no advantage. There is no disadvantage. Humans have eaten starch since forever.

Do I think it's a mandatory part of the diet? No. Do I think if you cut out starch you unintentionally cut out tons of calorie sources and make a bad situation worse? Absolutely.

Don't get caught up in applying extreme reductionism to foods. It will fuck you over big time.

There's nothing too controversial about Peat. It just needs heavy adaptation for the individual and you need to eat PROPER MEALS. I cannot stress how much I started doing well on my diet when I began eating more actual meals instead of a fruit basket and tons of OJ. OJ is great - as the drink with your MEAL to blunt endotoxin (according to new research posted a while back). It's not something i'd drink in isolation, loaded up with salt so your body "treats it like solid food" (lol).

Also, get more starches - New York bagel for breakfast (with scrambled egg on top), seasoned couscous, white rice based meals (such as mild, low PUFA curry), potato + small amount of melted cheese for lunch, stews with mashed taters (a nice gelatin opportunity too with the gravy). Stop fearing wheat too, unless you really are intolerant. It's not this big bad wolf that if you avoid, will cure all ills (unless you are celiac). A moderate amount of it is okay.

I also echo the idea of lowering fat - not necessarily 'low fat', just as low as you feel comfortable with. Stop eating ice cream as a staple if you are doing this already as it's extremely fattening - look at Josh Rubin. Reserve it as a treat pudding a couple of times per week. I enjoy low fat cottage cheese (amazing protein source and with honey it's fantastic). Conservative butter usage is recommended ie. thinly spread over bagel. Semi-skimmed milk is superior to full fat (nutritionally) and is not as fattening.

With the lower fat, that creates some wiggle room to mess with coconut oil too (which I think people make the mistake of using on top of a high fat diet). Maybe a teaspoon in the milk before bed time, with honey and a bit of salt, will help you get to sleep better.

And on the subject of sleep, I feel it's underplayed in the Peatarian community. Ample, WELL TIMED sleep (10-11pm until 7am) is utterly essential for well-being. Peat has said a poor nights sleep can take days to recover from, physiologically. Yet, no one talks about this in the community. We spend too much time mentally masturbating over the stress of darkness and melatonin, bathing under red lamps for hours a day, when the answer is just eat a good supper to equip you for the night and get to bed on time.

That's not to say supplements, drugs and weird shit like red lamps don't have their place. I use the occasional pregnenelone when I notice my skin looking less lustrous. Also don't be afraid to try some stuff that isn't necessarily Peat sanctioned but has a lot of safety evidence for on Pubmed. I got into all this dieting to beat baldness - it didn't work, but ultimately the finasteride seems to be helping at last. I also really like Haidut on the Ray Peat forum's posts about specific vitamins, and I used his knowledge to make a cheap aromatase inhibitor (Estroban) out A, D, E and K dissolved in milk before bed.

Finally, I feel that exercise is very very important. I hit the gym several times a week now and am in much better shape and have way more strength than a year ago. It's not a problem as long as you exercise intelligently - mild cycling and walking for the cardio, and weightlifting for strength. Take plenty of breaks, sugary drink on hand. Functional Performance Systems, and some of Cliff's recommendations for post workout snacking have been very beneficial for speeding up recovery time and not killing the thyroid while getting fit.

PS: Eating strictly is a stress in itself. I'm not going to say I cured all my problems by going YOLO and eating pizza 24/7, but it is very important to cheat. Say, fast food or a really anti-Peat meal a couple of times a week. I eat McDonald's, for the new weekly burger, and enjoy a pizza now and again. Also don't get aspie about labeling - it's fine if the odd food has carageneen or gums in it. Peat also often mentions certain things "can be allergenic", yet the community glosses over the first two words..

answered Mar 2, 2015 by PeatNoob

How old are you PeatNoob? I wish you didn't feel you need to take the finasteride. I think there are options that are safer and more effective if you don't mind mixing your own.

Yea, I don't get why you wouldn't take Progesterone instead. Check these videos out below. (Ironically, the doctor in the first video is the one I go to.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTdyJ80igGg&spfreload=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVq9XD0Ydzo&spfreload=10

I am 23 years old, already a Norwood 3 on the Hamilton Norwood scale.

I have already been through all of these suggestions and given everything a huge chance to work. I paid money to Roddy to unlock his videos - never pursued a refund as it was too late, but i'm actually more peeved that he seems to now be posting the so called 'exclusive' content on Youtube..

I did his diet strictly for months, probably nearly a year between late 2013 and 2014. I saw some health improvements in things like my POTS syndrome and no more migraines, but alas, zero progress on the hair front. Eventually it lapsed in favor of what I described above, as it became hellish both on me and others due to neurotic meal demands.

I was on fin and minoxidil back in 2013 and kept a VERY solid Norwood 2, with no side effects. I ditched both for Roddy's approach in 2014 and in a year am now a much less solid Norwood 3. Still looks fine if I get a good haircut, and people even compliment me on my hair on good days. But its not nearly as lustrous and secure as it once was. It's at the point where every hair now counts for the overall appearance to hold up - not something I can risk anymore on unproven diets with no clinical data or even decent before and after shots. I am still unconvinced Roddy even had MPB, for what it's worth. He's a Norwood 1 for fuck sake, and if he claims he "never regrew what he lost", then his 'loss' was laughable to begin with.

I have tried progesterone already. I applied it to the gums in summer last year, for 2-3 months straight, some times taking more than most women produce in a whole day. I worked through two bottles of Progest-E in I think 6 months. The best it did was produce tiny velus hair when applied topically - it's a dead end for combatting MPB to me. It even seemed to turn my penis into the melty man worse than finasteride did.

Now that i'm back on finasteride and extra strength minox cream, I think the situation is stabilising (less hair in shower and the hairline's not budged much in a few months). I still follow Danny's work on Facebook and Twitter as I think there is SOMETHING in there. The whole approach just never worked for me personally. I view his work as more like a collection of little interesting hair related factoids (eg. cortisol appears elevated in balding men) that MIGHT help if corrected - but it's not a convincing unifying theory in my opinion.

Tackling DHT seems to be mega important to halt MPB (see some thoughts and diagrams here: http://peatarian.com/53813/causes-observe-niacinamide-causing-niacin-causes-release), be it through: finasteride, progesterone, cyproterone acetate, castration etc etc.

For me, finasteride: 1. lowers DHT effectively, 2. gives me no side effects, 3. has a very robust safety profile based on a huge number of users, and 4. has very disputable negative effects. For example, the evidence for irreversable side effects is in the huge minority (>0.01% surely) and is based on anecdote. Based on well designed nocturnal penile tumescence tests, it didn't affect erectile function. Fin reduces some neurosteroids, but there is no increase of neurodegenarative disease in those with 5aR type II deficiency. There is even proposed repurposing of 4-azasteroid compounds for neurological conditions due to apparent protective effects (!!).

tl;dr - I feel comfortable taking finasteride, and it appears to be the only thing that legitimately works for the condition I most desperately want to fix.

No, not too long! I did read! Thanks. Just curious, did you try T3? Caffeine? Aspirin? Niacinamide? DHEA? Topically? in what base. What about the electron-withdrawers: tetracycline, emodin, alpha lipoic acid?

Please PM me if you'd prefer to chat in private.

Never tried T3 or any thyoird meds internally (frankly too scared to mess with it), but managed to improve thyroid function a fair bit with the diet. Heart rate is about 70-75, so a bit low but much better than the 60 before. Also no more huge fluctuations when standing due to POTS syndrome. Temps usually hover around and above the 36.8 range.

I occasionally take niacinimide after exercise but also some days when I am stressed. I have 250mg capsules and I take up to two at once. I attempted a topical of niacinimide, aspirin and coffee back in the Roddy days, but I struggled to get the niacimide to actually dissolve. It made a huge mess and I just had clumps of powder on my forehead overnight.

I drink at least 5 cups of coffee a day, so no issue with caffeine consumption but not tried topically. I'm wary about messing with aspirin at all tbh, due to its down regulation of PGE2, which is important for hair growth (as the Garza study linking PGD2 to balding discovered, and one of minoxidil's many methods of action). DHEA i'm also wary of taking due to supposedly higher levels of DHEA-S in prematurely balding young men (ie. me). I might make my situation worse.

All considered, i'm very interested in this topical T3 formula that had impressive results: https://www.facebook.com/thedannyroddyweblog/photos/a.166254416730223.33414.160367813985550/864246643597660/

It's T3, insulin and growth hormone. Roddy and his followers are fairly stumped about dosages and vehicles though, and even how to acquire growth hormone.. (which i'm skeptical of, and would avoid even if I could get it).

If you have any topical suggestions including dosages and vehicles, i'm all ears. I do think a topical T3, niacinimide and caffeine solution could be ideal as an adjunct to what i'm doing currently.

How the hell can you sit here and complain that Roddy's protocol didn't work for you and you didn't even try Cytomel? Your temperature isn't 37+? Growing hair is at the bottom of your body's hierarchal needs, so if you haven't addressed your low metabolism, you'll never regrow your hair. It's just not a luxury that your body can expend energy towards. Start out slow, with 1-2 mcg of Cytomel, and why not see what happens before you dismiss the entire protocol, which HE USES HIMSELF. Do you realize there are people that see their hair grow back, and follow nothing remotely close to this diet?

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