This archived forum used to be called 'Peatarian' (in reference to Ray Peat).

What's next after Ray Peat?

On my health journey I've been into being vegetarian, vegan, anti-sugar, Paleo, RRARF (matt stone), Paul Chek, homeopathy, detoxing, fasting, liver flushing etc. etc.

Now I'm into Ray Peat.

One thing that has remained consistent is my attitude. I staunchly believed I was right and everyone was wrong, whatever I was doing. When I was a vegan I didn't even want to associate with carnivores. Looking back I now feel foolish and cringe. For years I told my friends to STOP eating sugar etc. now I'm telling them to eat more. My new line I hear myself parroting is, 'come on man!, you got to eat ice cream, it has the same nutritional benefit as breast milk!'.

I used to watch Josh Rubin's youtube videos for years (when he preached Paul Chek) then over night he was telling me to eat marshmallows and drink OJ. I was angry and dismissed it for a while as I had studied Nutrition and natural medicine for 5 years and even wrote a book . so i felt major cognitive dissidence (which is a good sign you are learning). I am a classically trained Naturopath (ND) which I have turned my back on.

I do believe it's all a learning process and no feeling or belief is final. Ray Peat makes sense. But sometimes I look at Raw Youtubers ( and get a hot flush thinking…What if I'm wrong? They do look healthy dispute drinking gallons of giotragenic green juices?? (But, I know, maybe they have low pulses/temps and are peeing a lot and the damage maybe not visible for years). But I've never seen any before or after shots of people who are Ray Peating? and matt stone and josh rubin are looking chunky? (but then maybe being bigger is a sign of health if temps/pulse etc. are good).

I genuinely think I have found a lot of truths with RP and his cronies, it's been so refreshing and innovative, but then I thought the same when I was into, for instance, Paul Chek…so,

what's next after Ray Peat? whatever it is I'm excited because RP has really opened my mind.

: )

asked Nov 16, 2013 by Greg says

Ray peat is the only one who has ever improved my health.

Also about the raw veganism:


Mine too. For instance re-introducing sugar, ironically, has been the best thing I have ever done for my health.

Vegan and vegetarian caused so much damage which took years to overcome.

I think the health we inherit from our parents (jing or constitution) has a lot to do with how we feel.

wow, thanks for the link. I use to really like Kevin Gianni from Renegade Health. Glad he's seen the light. That is the issue with Raw eating, it can take so long to manifest as a serious health issue. And people become so dogmatic and still stick up for their beliefs to save face.

That woman doesn't look healthy at all. If it weren't for makeup she would look like a corpse. So what if she has a flat stomach? She probably has super bony legs too. I wouldn't trust her body to nourish my future children.

None of the healthy people I know follow any type of diet. They eat what they want, according to appetite. I know many people here think that everyone in America is unhealthy, but I know lots of healthy people of all ages. They know nothing about mineral ratios, "bad' amino acids like tryptophan, or any of the other stuff peatarians obsess about.

NONE of them drink quarts of milk everyday or avoid grains, vegetables and starches. And they are not taking thyroid, pregnenolone and prescriptions drugs that they can get only through the internet.

For me, this was the worse diet ever, even worse than paleo. The only things that are helpful are the thyroid hormone and physiological doses of progesterone. I got no metabolism boost from the overdose of milk and calcium. In fact, I now have weight gain around the middle which I never had before Peat. This means my stress hormones increased. Also, I would wake up seven or eight times during the night after starting Peat, whereas before I would awaken maybe once or twice.

My goal is to get rid of the weight around my middle even if it means following a ketogenic diet for a short period of time. After I get rid of the weight, I am going to follow the example of the healthy people I know who eat whatever they want in moderation.

Yeah. I bet she get's really gassy.

What does your diet look like islandgirl? You are obviously having some issues and are stressing about it...

The healthy people around you are eating whatever they want because their health hasn't declined to a point where they want to do something about it. We were all like that at some point.

@ Eliminatethejuice

She is just a troll. Every thread she talks about how horrible peat's advice is, she never gives any constructive criticism or advice.

Yeah, I have a friend who I thought was "heathy" because she eats McDonald's food like nobody's business and stays super thin. She has a fast metabolism too. then I was working with her one weekend last month and found out she's undergoing fertility treatment and has bad digestive problems. And she's always tired and stressed. Nothing is what it seems. There are lots of people I think are healthy and can eat whatever and then I find out it's not the case.

^ Exactly! Most people (especially Americans) have health issues, they are just not open about it. People put on appearances all the time.


ah gotcha.

I know what you mean about having followed so many diet fads before, but I feel like RP is the end of the line because it isn't actually a diet, it's more just learning what the effects of different foods are on your body and how to make choices. I don't see myself being attracted to another nutrition philosophy because my main goal is now increasing metabolism and balancing hormones - RP runs circles around all the others in that respect. Plus it's just a really enjoyable normal way to eat.

i think one of the biggest changes with Peating has been that open-mindedness....and with that open-mindedness there also comes a more relaxed approach to diet. because it can't truly be "dogmatized" i feel it doesn't bring on that superiority complex that all the mainstream diet religions can adopt.

If avoiding pufa, eating fruit, meats, liver, other nutrient dense food, salt, saturated fat etc. doesn't work I would suggest eating starches to everybody who avoids them totally. Especially if supplementing thyroid-you need more food, more energy! the need for food , energy and nutrients rises if the body needs to recover form health issues. One probably cannot warm up enough and refill glycogen stores only on OJ and little fruit. If one had tons of fresh, organic, ripe, real fruit and ate it whole day than it would be ok maybe. OJ, milk and eggs did wonders for me digestion wise, but only PERMANENTLY. One cannot live off it too long. It is supposed to help you heal and start absorbing nutrients again trough your intestine. Maybe I am completely wrong, but that has been my experience ( I eat potatoes and rice only, I am sensitive to gluten)

islandgirl makes a very important point about moderation. just like the paleo world had its exodus of people with messed up metabolisms, etc (no moderation there) - i can see a bit of it in the Peat realm too now. However, people who end up increasing stress hormones in an attempt to reduce them according to Peat cannot blame him. Peat never once said that high-carb (as an example) is the correct path to oxidative metabolism. the truth is (and i've brought this up a couple times here) is that Peat doesn't really address the most important thing to synthesize all his information - which is "how do i apply this to me?" there seems to be no clear "system" for figuring out how to create homeostasis/moderation for one's self. without that system, all the info. he offers is not practically helpful. no fault to him, as I don't think he ever imagined his writings would become something of a dietary model.

12 Answers

Peat is a great scientist whose work is general and should survive the test of time, if civilization itself survives (which is unlikely).

But Peat has so far said he doesn't want to be the one to develop an actual experiment protocol for those who suffer from degenerative disease caused by industrial degradation of the food supply, and who need help urgently.

But I'm hoping someone will. It really is, for so many, a matter of life or death.

answered Feb 20, 2015 by visionofstrength
edited Feb 21, 2015 by visionofstrength

And that's exactly the problem,the black&white thinking of people (including myself) that 'x' food is either bad or good,or in other words heals or destroys.
There will never be a protocol to stick to in order to heal whatever degenerative disease,bc we're all unique. There are so many physical&non-physical factors involved (some of which can't be controlled),that it's impossible to construct a 'protocol/diet' that everyone will thrive on.

Yes, it's impossible to say in the abstract. Instead, each person has his or her own unique structure and energy and a customized protocol for that structure and energy.

For example, are you gaining bodyfat? Is your alveolar CO2 less than 5%? Does your blood glucose flatline? Do you have an enlarged or fatty liver? Do you metabolize too few calories in a day?

Each of these is symptomatic of a diminished structure and energy, and you can experiment with yourself to find what customized protocol works for you in improving your own structure and energy.

But what's missing is an experiment protocol, or set of instructions that lets you experiment for yourself.

Sugar and butter are deemed healthy. Need I say more? there is nothing more.

answered Nov 16, 2013 by Lindsay

and chocolate

of course. and I guess we should add ice cream to that list.

And salt :)

and post-orgasm prolactin is irrelevant.

Said who?

^ Actually, prolactin does not necessarily rise after orgasm. Took me months to figure that out. I believe there's only a single study about it.

I dont even want to imagine the kind of sex that does not raise prolactin. Meditational tantra sex maybe, hehe. Not for me, thanks ;-)

It's actually multiple orgasms that don't seem to raise prolactin. Probably because of the lack of a refractory phase.

why does anyone even care if orgasms might raise prolactin? it's not going to stop anyone from having them.

I'd do everything I can to minimize stress hormones.

I care because it is interesting to question the ways in which the body works. If the rise in prolactin is indeed not linked to the possible physical fatigue after sex, but directly to the refractory periode, one has to ask what function this rise in prolactin has. Does prolactin induce the refractory period or does the refractory period induce prolactin secretion? Why can the refractory period be avoided if it is claimed to be vital in the male reproduction cycle (in that it ensures the production of adequate amounts of sperm)?

I understand caring about the biological mechanism, but I don't think it warrants lifestyle change.

I don't think it warrants lifestyle changes either - at least not in this regard.

If prolactin does rise it is probably because a lot of nutrients are taken out of the body after ejaculation, zinc, vit C, proteins..
When breastfeeding, prolactin is high. I wonder what opposes that high prolactin then, high progesterone produced in the ovaries?

I think prolactin/testosterone levels may correlate inversely. The higher T you are, the shorter the refractory period. The lower T you are, the longer the refractory period. I would say that this makes sense from a mating and evolutionary perspective. Low-T males are more likely to engage in longer term monogamous relationships, and high prolactin encourages this by suppressing sex drive. High-T males are more likely to engage in multiple short-term relationships, and low-prolactin/high-testosterone encourages this as well by increasing sex drive.

As we drift toward andropause, all men become lower-T, and if you are unhealthy, you age faster and reach andropause faster. You can reach the physiological equivalent of andropause in a few days just by slowing your metabolism enough with the hormones of stress, by undereating, undersleeping, etc. Conversely, I believe you can raise test and lower prolactin by doing the opposite, i.e. doing whatever tends to reverse age you.

This is just how I interpret the whole prolactin/post orgasm issue.

I think the increase in prolactin comes from hyperventilating. In theory, prolactin should result from any exercise or activity that results in a net loss of CO2 from the blood.

Studies are designed by scientists who never finished Biology 101, as taught by Ling and Peat.


answered Nov 16, 2013 by pranarupa

yeah but I like breathing..... and sighing..... and laughing. I don't want to give those things up.

why would you enjoy sighing? Each sigh has a physiological effect decreasing co2, ask yourself, why are you sighing, for what purpose?

Because I don't want to live life in a bubble. Emotions are an important part of life that I will never give up. A happy sigh, a relieved sigh, a relaxing sigh - these are all things that give daily life meaning, despite the loss of CO2

You've taken Pranarupa's advice not to breath too literally:)

Nah - I take it all with a grain of salt :)



answered Nov 16, 2013 by Anon


Dat Feel.

answered Nov 16, 2013 by Kasra

the dude abides.

You have to find which diet workS for you, for some people Ray Peat may help, but for others not.

Good luck!

answered Nov 16, 2013 by Health
edited Nov 17, 2013 by Health

You're so smart. I wish you had shared this visionary knowledge to me sooner. Thanks!

You are not your own guru, your guru is Ray Peat and others "Petarians" which you posted.

No. I live in my own body, my own organism. I self experiment with food and supplements and take risks. I don't just believe anything as absolutely true. I read other people besides Peat.

I agree with you, health. What you wrote may seem obvious, but many people aren't practicing what they preach. Instead, they say we should be our own guru, but then they attack others for thinking differently from them. They wrap their attacks in the cowardly "debating" cloak, but we know what's really going on. They want to feel secure in their beliefs so they voice their views and get aggressive if those views aren't accepted. People don't start insulting people with name calling when they are just "debating." The name calling is meant to hurt someone. Debating is not!

Nothing is "next" Mr. Doyle. Stop searching for a guru and become your own guru.

An e-book for $4.83? Nice. How many of those did you sell? Just curious.

The first thing you have to realize and accept, if you haven't already, is that you are not a normal person. No one on this website is. In fact, no one on any diet/health forum is normal. It doesn't matter what genre it is, we are all quacks to everyone else. In and apart from each other, and including the rest of the world, we all disagree. We, meaning any genre of health, are all familiar with each other, but to make "the fight" even stronger, there is the rest of the medical world and general population who will only take advice from them on these subjects, from the authorities. It takes a certain kind of quack, like us, to move beyond the authorities, and research and evaluate, and most importantly, self experiment for ourselves. We are the believers, that if we have a health problem, we just might be able to fix it without going to our MD and begging for a drug. But I have zero interest in "fighting" with anyone. I do what I want. I don't care about you enough to try to spread my views like a religious nut knocking on your door. It's one thing to debate and discuss, as I enjoy doing with fellow primates who have the similar interest. It's another to waste time with fools.

"When I was a vegan I didn't even want to associate with carnivores. Looking back I now feel foolish and cringe. For years I told my friends to STOP eating sugar etc. now I'm telling them to eat more. My new line I hear myself parroting is, 'come on man!, you got to eat ice cream, it has the same nutritional benefit as breast milk!"

Don't do that. Please read this great article: (thanks to jb for posting)

I wouldn't consider Stone as a "Peat" guy, he eats anything he wants. His 180 has turned into a 360. But that's because he realized that one cannot make it to the Dr. Oz show as a health guru and be a "fanatic." You have to be somewhere in the middle or you are a quack.

Rob Tuner would be the closest thing to a true "Peatarian" if such a person exists. Here is a recent photo of him, he isn't chunky:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

answered Nov 17, 2013 by Westside PUFAs
reshown Sep 19, 2014 by Westside PUFAs

I know people who look good and they eat junk food LOL

the picture was in response to "But I've never seen any before or after shots of people who are Ray Peating? and matt stone and josh rubin are looking chunky?"

Wheat and PUFAs

Good that you know at least English, because you couldn't communicate with others.Sure you couldn't say even one correct word in my native language, which is one of the most difficult languages.I do not know what is your intention to be here, the only thing what you do is criticising others or using quotations from Ray Peat and others.

BTW.If you do not understand my English and you are so proud of your own English and you think that you are perfect, do not read my postings.
To say that someone is stupid ( a moron) because English is not his/her first language it says much about you.
I know a lot people from different countries but not one of them says that someone is stupid or a moron because they do not speak English or others languages well.

Yeah good article (this is not a diet).

Yeah, I already knew the answer to my question (What is next after RP?). I wanted to hear some other opinions. It's the anti-authoritarianism of Peat that strikes me. I cannot abide authoritarians.

Rob Turner is my favourite Peatarian.

I sold about 240 and still going. I printed off 100 beautiful hard copies and sold them for £15 (they cost £12 each to print). It wasn't a money making venture, it was done for catharsis (and I was unemployed). It's two books in one, a travel journal; my own journey from loosing my health, and developing complex PTSD to breaking free from convention and doctoring myself back to health. RP has been the biggest influence on that journey, but I only discovered him as the book was about to be published. I have now revised the ebook to include Peat. Yes it's cheap and far better (visually) than most ebooks out there, that are mucho dollars. I would send everyone one for free but the file is too large.

I do consider myself a Guru. Not just because I have spent £20,000 on degrees and courses, including CHEK and The Metabolic Blueprint, but because of my own experience of losing my health, going into the orthodox system and getting worse then taking responsibility for my own health and healing myself. That gives me the credibility to help others, which is what I do. That's why i like this forum, because there are lots of intelligent, unconventional anti-authoritarians. : )

A note on Paul Chek. He is a very intelligent, well read man. But he got lots of flack because Josh Rubin (a level 4 CHEK practitioner) started to follow RP. Which is contradictory to Chek. I believe Chek, if he is really well read, would see RP was a genius but that would effect his own book and business so he continues to say sugar is bad. Which any fool can now see is not true.

So, what's next after Ray Peat? Nothing.

Greg, how do you know that Paul got a lotta flack? And from whom?

It wasn't so much Josh, it was Paul Chek. Because he was getting inundated with people saying they had heard Josh mention lots of things contradictory to the CHEK philosophy. Paul wrote an open letter on his website putting his point across about RP. Which was good, as most Chekkies can't think for themselves and look to Paul for everything, but he said that it's good to seek out your own information and follow your own path (as Josh did). Paul is not anti RP.

Paul Chek also went vegetarian for a while and his followers completely lost it.

W&P - I've found increasingly the opposite - that being "somewhere in the middle" is usually more wise than the extremes. i know it's not a popular idea, and sounds un-scientific - but "moderation" really does go a long way. even Peat would agree.

You could eat the ray peat diet raw

answered Nov 16, 2013 by mvrik

Yeah, we're clearly done here, so the logical next step would be to evolve new bodies and live on a new planet. "Zantofirin 7" is my FAV new "Viamind". It's from space. A viamind is like a vitamin that exists because you thought of it. People with neurological conditions often have a deficiency of zantofirins, usually because they forget about the things. It was discovered on planet chubusviagnorintin by Chrosty brogunderfunt.

answered Nov 16, 2013 by Bryan

Homeopathy. Actually, I've been using it the last year.

answered Feb 20, 2015 by raintree

Is this the future?

No. Douche bag.

answered Nov 16, 2013 by Greg says

Soylent seems like it is a just a worse version of milk

Someone needs to do a parody and call it; "how I lived for 30 days without sex" and just masturbate.

@Bryan but that wouldn't be new and interesting